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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week is a soldier. In fact, she is the highest-ranking woman in uniform in the United Nations and her work is all about peacekeeping. 

 

[00:00:10] Cheryl Pearce

Peace for me is seeing communities having food security, having water security, education. Knowing... As a mum myself, knowing that my children can grow up to feel like that they can have a life and a future and fulfill their dreams and goals. 

 

[00:00:33] Melissa Fleming

Lieutenant General Cheryl Pearce of Australia is the Acting Military Adviser for Peacekeeping Operations. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Cheryl. 

 

[00:00:57] Cheryl Pearce

Thanks, Melissa. It's wonderful to be here. 

 

[00:00:59] Melissa Fleming

Cheryl, you've had a long and distinguished career, over 35 years in the military. I do want to hear how you got here, but I first wanted to ask you about your work now. And maybe just an explainer, like how many peacekeeping missions are there for the UN and where are they? 

 

[00:01:18] Cheryl Pearce

Thanks, Melissa. My key role in the Department of Peace Operations is advising the Under-Secretary-General, Jean-Pierre Lacroix. Equally, I work closely with all the force commanders across all our missions in their direction and guidance and supporting them in the main in delivering on the mandates across our 11 peacekeeping missions that we have. And really, we've got 68,000 peacekeepers across those 11 missions. Very different in what they're focusing on, whether explicit or implicit for protection of civilians to really trying to support achieving a political solution. To creating peace in what is a difficult security environment. 

 

[00:02:02] Melissa Fleming

I'm sure it is one of the most challenging roles in the UN. 

 

[00:02:06] Cheryl Pearce

It is at the moment, Melissa. Look, you know, the current financial situation and the effect it's having on our peace operations across all our missions, all nine of the 11 actually, who are affected by this. And the reduction in, the significant reduction in the amount of troops on the ground as well as how do we deliver on the mandate with the reduced forces. 

But also supporting the troop-contributing countries. They have been great contributors over a significant period of time and working with them on really the depth and the quickness of this decision that we do not have the cash to be able to continue the missions in this financial year. And so, it is quite a shock. And it's also working with them on how do we actually do it quickly to ensure that we can maintain the mission going forward and to do what is ours to do. 

 

[00:03:06] Melissa Fleming

And of course it does affect troop-contributing countries, and that's what we rely on, right? They are Member States who offer to send their own military personnel into these missions. What are some of the countries that are the biggest who provide troops to the UN? 

 

[00:03:24] Cheryl Pearce

Yeah, look, we have 119 troop-contributing countries and the largest are Nepal, Rwanda, Bangladesh, India, China, Ethiopia, Tanzania. There are [inaudible] and they're all losing hundreds and some thousands of peacekeepers. 

 

[00:03:45] Melissa Fleming

One question about the troop-contributing countries. What is in it for them? Why do they contribute so many troops to UN peacekeeping? 

 

 

[00:03:56] Cheryl Pearce

It's a purpose. They believe in who we are and what we do in peace operations. Some have been with the UN since 1948. I know Australia, we contributed with our mission in the Middle East in 1948. And have contributed small amounts. Have gone up and down over the decades. Some have come in more recently, but now contribute significant number of troops. It's a commitment by those Member States and the true belief in what we do and our purpose in peace and security. 

 

[00:04:32] Melissa Fleming

And it's their contribution to the UN. It's very, very unique. And I know we have a campaign in my department. It's called "Service and Sacrifice," where we thank the Member State for providing their troops. My takeaway always is that they feel so proud that they're able to send and to make this kind of contribution, which is service, but also sacrifice. Because these are tough duty stations. I mean, keeping the peace in places where it is unstable. 

 

[00:05:05] Cheryl Pearce

It is. And they're becoming more complex, the missions over the years. You know, you've got numerous armed groups that continue to grow. You've got transnational criminals. You've got cyber. You've got new and emerging threats that are coming into play. We've got political solutions that are not advancing. You've now got the civilian population, which is turning in the mis/disinformation. So, the complexities are becoming more numerous. And the difficulties are becoming higher and then the risks then become higher. 

But I'll take it back, Melissa. Just one is we talk about Member States, you know, that sense of contributing. Each and every one of our peacekeepers is also a volunteer. Service in UN missions is of voluntary nature. And for that, you know, the purpose by which we represent our national entity, our Member State under the UN flag is one we do proudly. We will serve for the period of time for which we are deployed to the best of our ability. 

 

[00:06:12] Melissa Fleming

Is there a place that you visited recently in one of these really difficult working environments? I guess that's not even the right term because they're working. I mean, you even mentioned, and I wanted to talk about that, that peacekeepers actually lose their lives. These are very tough situations. Is there one that you've visited in your time in this role that you can't get out of your mind? And can you describe the challenges or what it was that really struck you? 

 

[00:06:40] Cheryl Pearce

Yeah, look... I'll say two, because it's what we ask of our peacekeepers and the human element of it. One in MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] in the Democratic Republic of Congo. We had the fall of Goma in January this year. And right up until now, they haven't been able to rotate out of there. They've had a restriction of movement. Now we have managed in different ways. We've had people on the ground trying to negotiate individuals leaving. But we had peacekeepers who were in mission for up to 18 months without a break, without even leaving their little base because they couldn't move. It was actually our Tanzanian peacekeepers, who were north of Goma, who were on a patrol base. For the whole time they've been there, of 12 months, they had not left the base. The M23 had not let them leave. They hadn't left the base to do patrolling. 

And this was a quick reaction force. This was designed to be mobile, to be agile, to be out there conducting operations, and they're all stuck in their base. And we had the troop-contributing country engaging with us. 'Come on, can we do something? Can we move them? Can we repatriate them? Can we rotate them?' We just couldn't get traction anywhere to do anything. I feel that deeply because being on the ground and knowing what it means for them, and knowing the risks, the moves, but we're still trying to achieve a political outcome. To me, that was their service to country, service to the UN. And their real resilience in what they're doing is something that resonates with me. 

But also, in UNIFIL [United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon] in Lebanon. September last year, when we had the escalation in the region south of Litani and we had many peacekeepers who were under direct threat. They were in bunkers for days on end. They were really austere bunkers. There wasn't Wi-Fi. There wasn't electricity. It was basic. And they were in there hours and hours with indirect fire coming in. 

 

 

[00:08:51] Melissa Fleming

What does peace mean to you? 

 

[00:08:54] Cheryl Pearce

It's not the absence of conflict. Peace for me is seeing communities having food security, having water security, education. Knowing... You know, as a mum myself, knowing that my children can grow up to feel like that they can have a life and a future and fulfill their dreams and goals. That is peace for me. And so, we have seen a lot of success over the years in United Nations missions. 

 

[00:09:21] Melissa Fleming

Of course, it helps when you're well-funded, when you have all the support. And I'm just wondering, you know, given our current circumstances, but maybe any... I'm just wondering what is it that keeps you awake at night? 

 

[00:09:36] Cheryl Pearce

So one for me is the safety and security of our peacekeepers. We're never asked to go into a sterile, calm environment. So, we are always aware that the risk is higher. The weight for me at the moment is the lack of funding for peacekeeping. The geopolitical environment is more difficult. Each of our missions is more complex. 

We've got many conflicts that we're not in, but are deteriorating. And you're observing, and you feel a level of helplessness of how do you support, how could we support? But it's not our role. It's not one until Member States ask us. But it doesn't stop me thinking about it. So, I'm always a military planner, so I'll always be thinking about what our options, how would we go about it, because it is difficult. 

But the here and now for me is... I think about a lot now is if we don't get more funding, how do we adjust? I don't believe in a world without peacekeeping. I truly believe in what we do and that we do make a difference. There is so much good about who we are and what we do. 

 

[00:10:49] Melissa Fleming

What is the case that you make for why invest in peacekeeping? 

 

 

[00:10:57] Cheryl Pearce

It's because we make a difference, I would say. My one is, in simple terms, it's good value for money. Having forces on the ground provides an environment for which the communities feel safe. It enables us to ensure humanitarian effort is provided where we can. We provide the force protection for that. We also do a deterrence for armed groups to ensure that, again, those communities feel safe. In those that have a more of a ceasefire role, just the presence of peacekeepers can be the difference between a conflict or not. Cyprus is a classic of that. So, the presence of peacekeepers is actually in some ways essential to just keep the calm and stability and stop a returning to conflict. So, when you have a too small a number, it makes it difficult to have that effect. 

 

[00:11:57] Melissa Fleming

And you mentioned when you were describing that the operating environment has become so complex that mis- and disinformation is one of the big challenges. I mean, very often, and I've seen this working with your colleagues, that really distorted information is being injected into the public about the peacekeepers. And this has a dramatic effect on public opinion. And also affects the safety of peacekeepers. Can you describe that challenge? 

 

[00:12:32] Cheryl Pearce

Look, it does. I think all of us, with yourselves, with your department, peace operations, is tracking and determining the impact of the mis- and disinformation. But the swing against by using of social media, and very clever individuals who are really changing the narrative around the positive to the negative peacekeepers resonates and we're seeing it on the ground. We see communities who were once supportive, not supportive. And it's been a very little change in what we're doing. 

But at every level, the narrative, it's actually how do we counter it and how do we get out the good news stories? But it is a key component of what we do do now, because reputationally and brand-wise, what the Blue Helmet means is significant for us. There is so much good going on out there. We spend a lot of time reacting to the negative. We've got to get better at promoting the good news stories because our peacekeepers are out there each and every day giving their best in engaging, communicating and working within the communities for which they serve. 

 

[00:13:51] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. In this position, you are the highest-ranking woman in uniform in the UN, which is quite an achievement. But one, I'm sure it comes with some challenges. How do you navigate the space?

 

[00:14:05] Cheryl Pearce

It's really interesting because, you know, if I cast back nearly 40 years ago now, Melissa, when I first joined. It is 40. First joined the military, it was a really difficult environment and I won't pretend otherwise. It was the first period of integrated training for women in Australia in 1985. 

 

[00:14:29] Melissa Fleming

I think you were 18. 

 

[00:14:31] Eighteen. And trying to navigate that environment. 

 

[00:14:38] Melissa Fleming

Did they expect that you trained at the same level or...? What was it like? 

 

[00:14:42] Cheryl Pearce

Look, it was really difficult. I say the strength of being 18 is that you don't know any different. You know, I had come from a very... It was a sporty background. I had come from living in the country. So, it was... I was pretty robust I would call it. And so, I just gave everything my best shot. I wasn't the best. I wasn't the worst. My physicality was prioritized. And so, you know, in your junior years, physicality rewarded how to be part of a team, how to be a soldier first and then, you know, become an officer. 

 

[00:15:27] Melissa Fleming

So was it like basic training? 

 

[00:15:27] Cheryl Pearce

It was officer training, but yes, it was extreme. It was to the edge of your resilience that you had. I would say my own internal resilience and determination helped me get through. We lost half of the females in our officer training. We did all exactly the same physical tests as the males did. We actually had rules that if you failed your test, you couldn't have any weekend leave. And we had a couple of my female colleagues who were there for six months, never having left the base, and just because they couldn't do heaves or they couldn't do a couple of the tests and they left. And you know, I'd say for the grace [inaudible] was that I didn't break physically and I had some really wonderful friends who just... It was nearly pushing us harder than everyone else to see whether we could survive. It was having to be better than to be equal.  

 

 

[00:16:33] Melissa Fleming

Is that a form of discrimination? 

 

[00:16:35] Cheryl Pearce

Oh, look, yeah. I would say back then it was new. There was a perception of "why." Why would you want to have females in with the males? You were talking 40 years. And so, it was emerging and I... There were very few who believed in us. In all the instructors, there was just two - my regimental sergeant major and the commandant of the college. I have said it was one of the key moments was the regimental sergeant major who was like a six-foot-six warrant officer. He tipped my head up and just said, 'I believe in you, Ms. McDonald.' Because nobody¡­ My maiden name¡­ No one had believed in me and I was doubting myself. And just having one person when it is really tough and there was a very bad culture, just believing in you was just enough. That was it. 

 

[00:17:35] Melissa Fleming

But there must be something about you that you persevered. 

 

[00:17:40] Cheryl Pearce

Look, it was interesting. I reflect back when I became more senior and it was more about a fear of failure than a desire to succeed. And so, it was the determination that you're not going to destroy me, you're not going to kick me out, you're not going to do this. And then each job I did was just giving it my best with a resilience. I loved what I did. It was difficult. I will never want my first decade in the military to be ever repeated again. 

 

[00:18:15] Melissa Fleming

What was the day like? 

 

[00:18:17] Cheryl Pearce

Different jobs, different roles, but I really felt that I was never believed to be as good as my male colleagues then. The level of harassment, the level of the culture. I would just say the culture was a really difficult culture in that time. It was just hard going proving yourself each and every day that you belong to that, you deserve to be there and don't discriminate because I was a female. And the girlfriends and I who... I'm the only one still in. But reflect back on why did we decide to stay? What made us stay? Why didn't we go and find careers somewhere else? Was [inaudible] that shared experience. You know, we can do this. We can get through this. Come on. We can get there. 

 

[00:19:06] Melissa Fleming

I just want to go back for a minute because you mentioned there was one moment and one man who touched you on the head and said, 'I believe in you.' 

 

[00:19:16] Cheryl Pearce

Look, it was really pivotal sitting at 18, having the whole time spent in a negative space about you're not good at this, you failed this, being yelled at. Everything is wrong. You don't receive any praise. You start to doubt yourself and how much can you doubt yourself before you go, 'This is not me. I need to go.' We were the minority and everyone believed that we were bringing the male peers down. We were weaker. 

And this regimental sergeant major, he's a senior soldier. Six foot six, an infantry soldier, Vietnam veteran. One of these ones that you're in awe of. And we were young officer cadets. And his hut, as it was called, was between the parade ground and where we were. We had to go up and down this hill. By him just stopping me and just taking a moment to having external reinforcement. 'Hey, I believe in you,' is sometimes that's all it takes. And it resonated throughout all of my career that I will stop always and say to somebody, 'Hey, you're doing a great job.' 

 

[00:20:43] Melissa Fleming

Did you ever tell him how much that meant to you?

 

[00:20:47] Cheryl Pearce

No. It was actually, I wish I had, because I didn't know that it meant so much, but he passed when I was a force commander in Cyprus. And what is really special now is that his daughter has reached out. She's a mum in her forties and she's gone off to become a soldier and she's just, you know. And she feels her dad looking over her shoulder, but she reached out because she was aware that he had made a difference to my life. And so, she, yeah¡­ She just touched base with me. And, so now we just stay connected.

 

[00:21:25] Melissa Fleming

It just shows how one person can make a difference. I love that, to really check in with people and just see how they're doing because we often just don't say what we're thinking. And we're often thinking really nice things about other people. 

 

[00:21:42] Cheryl Pearce

I know it's just the human element and it does also make the connections. And, you know, sometimes you go the extra mile for that team, that shared experience. You know, I love building teams. I love empowering and inspiring those that I work with and those that work for me. 

 

 

[00:22:10] Melissa Fleming

You have daughters. 

 

[00:22:10] Cheryl Pearce

I have two daughters. 

 

[00:22:12] Melissa Fleming

And do they...? Have you infused in them that sense of, I mean, your values, the respect and the courage, and also that just feeling of confidence in themselves? 

 

[00:22:27] Cheryl Pearce

Yeah, look, I have. And I do have two beautiful daughters who I'm very, very proud of. Young women taking on the world themselves. And they do have great values and they are well grounded. And they are leaders in themselves. They dance to their own songs. They march to their footprints. You know, they don't follow anyone else. 

 

[00:22:55] Melissa Fleming

They didn't follow you and your profession? 

 

[00:22:57] Cheryl Pearce 

No, my oldest daughter said, she said, 'I don't want to ever work as hard as you do.' Was her thing. But I think for them being in a military family and moving is always hard. They feel that loss of community. That's one that is difficult in military families. So, they are really wonderful human beings, who... One is a young mum now in the profession. My other one has got a complex injury, so she's really being challenged, her resilience and trying to find a way forward and being there for her. 

But it was quite interesting. I had a really difficult conversation with my younger daughter. What I realized was that I was trying to be the protector and I was trying to be everything there for them, like a leader. But they didn't see my vulnerabilities. They didn't see me. Those moments of chaos and tears and all the vulnerabilities you have. And so, in some ways, I hadn't shown them my true self. I was giving them my protector. Let me help you and doing the leader piece, but not the mum they just wanted me to be. Just lose it, chaotic, you know, time poor, completely a shemozzle. They wanted to see me being less than perfect. And I feel very much less than perfect in day-to-day. You know, I don't feel like that I always have it all together. 

But for some reason, you know, she had indicated that she had me up too high on a pedestal and that there was a gap. And so, it really took some conversations, lots of tears to be able to bridge that, to say, 'Hey, no. I go through the same vulnerabilities you have. My journey of self-belief, my journey of the hard yards is there.' And I do get what she's doing. So, it is hard because you're trying to be a bit of both. But now we have a great relationship. It is a really good one on communication. And they are my priority. I'm so proud of both of them. And, I feel so very blessed that I've been able to have children and I've been able have a career and children. That's not easy. 

 

[00:25:38] Melissa Fleming

And a partner. 

 

[00:25:39] Cheryl Pearce

And a partner, my husband. And he's wonderfully supportive. He's come to New York with me. And so, he's been a great source of support. And makes sure that I'm grounded as well.  

 

[00:25:55] Melissa Fleming

Well, everything that you said rings very true for me too as well. I think I also tried to be too perfect. But also, I think many people say with every strong woman leader, there could be an amazing husband behind who made some sacrifices. 

 

[00:26:19] Cheryl Pearce

And look, you know, for my children, for all of my community and my friends, I couldn't be doing what I do without that community around. You know, we didn't have the childcare policies in place when I had children. There were no women ahead of me in my career. So how to do children and career. You know, I had set hours. I had to do physical training early at 6.30. Daycares didn't open then. You know there was so many constraints and really organizational blockages that you really had to navigate and fight to succeed. You could have easily opted out because it was really hard to stay in. 

And it was the friends who could... You know, I could drop my daughters off, you now, 6.30 in the morning in pajamas, who fed them breakfast to help them get to the daycare and to school so I could go to work. An au pair because when I was a commanding officer I had to move around Australia and it's a large country and so I had to move to different locations so I needed extra help there. And, you know, I took time off. We didn't have policy in place at that time. We do now. I couldn't... I had to take leave without pay because my then husband was posted to the States but I wasn't allowed to be employed but I took an opportunity to do some more studies and I got a great time to full-time parent my daughters, which I hadn't had a chance to do. So, I don't have any regrets. 

 

[00:27:57] Melissa Fleming

But in between, you decided to go overseas. I guess you were still... You had your kids and you just went to Afghanistan? 

 

[00:28:04] Cheryl Pearce

Ah, yes. Yeah. Look, I had the opportunity when my daughters were very young to go to East Timor, Timor-Leste as a military observer. That was my first introduction into United Nations. And it was very difficult to get out the door to deploy, but once I deployed, absolutely loved it. I thrived. I really enjoyed the professional... I enjoyed the space to just do my military profession. And that was really before mobile phones. We didn't have a lot of communication, so I was very anxious as a mother, but equally the freedom to solely work was wonderful as well. 

Afghanistan, I was a task force commander of the Australian forces in 2016. I'd done a couple of smaller hits in Afghanistan when I was working with our special forces, but they were just small injects in. But I was over there for 12 months as the commander in 2016 in Kabul. And my youngest had just finished high school and was going to university. So, the timing in one way worked, which she went off to live in at the university and I was then able to deploy for the 12 months. Again, loved it. Loved... You know, my whole career prepared me for that command opportunity and it really was purposeful. Our mission was purposeful. It was difficult but I was well prepared for that role. 

 

[00:29:42] Melissa Fleming

And then you ended up in Cyprus. 

 

[00:29:45] Cheryl Pearce

Yes, that was, it was one of those ones. Yes, a little bit naive going in thinking I could move the dial on UNFICYP [United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus] and the issue in Cyprus. But it was my first time in commanding a multi-national force. I had commanded Australian forces, but my first-time multi-national. Also working as part of an integrated mission. It was a steep learning curve, I'll be honest, understanding the UN culture. And the bureaucracy of the UN took a little while. But the leadership team, we all worked well together. For me, it was really humbling to be able to lead such an incredible variety of nations and individuals for a common effect, and so I found it a great experience. 

 

 

[00:30:39] Melissa Fleming

Finally, I just wonder, what do you do...? I know your job is really stressful. What do you to keep yourself fit and to relax? 

 

[00:30:50] Cheryl Pearce

If I said that I ran marathons to keep myself fit. I find I'm a very slow runner. I find my physical activity just balances my mind and body. I find that running and just the monotony of the run allows my head to clear. It's really good for my mental health. It's good for physical health. I am a good military person in that I love routine. So, I'll get up very early and I find exercise first thing in the morning is my balance. It enables me to just clear my head for the start of the day. 

 

[00:31:34] Melissa Fleming

So you go out for a run first thing? 

 

[00:31:36] Cheryl Pearce

Run or the gym. New York's too bloody cold for me, Melissa, in winter time. But as an Australian, this is way cold here. As I'm getting older, it¡¯s a lot more of trying to rehabilitate and look after my body than it is to remain high impact physical. But I do like challenges. I do like goals. I like to have something that is separate in my own personal goals in a physical way and I've been trying to get all the Majors done in the marathons. 

 

[00:32:11] Melissa Fleming

You run marathons?  

 

[00:32:13] Cheryl Pearce

Yeah. So, I finished Chicago about a month ago and I've got one to go in the Majors in the six, which is I started with New York in 2018 and I managed to do Boston and Berlin. And I did London this year and Chicago this year. 

 

[00:32:28] Melissa Fleming

Congratulations! 

 

[00:32:28] Cheryl Pearce

Thank you. But again, that's just my little thing on the side, you know. 

 

[00:32:32] Melissa Fleming

A little thing. That's more than a little thing. And what about...? What do you do to relax? 

 

 

[00:32:38] Cheryl Pearce

If I said that that was relaxing for me... Look, I love space. I do... I love reading and I love space. It's really hard to find that in New York. And not having a car I find just for me is getting down on water on the Hudson. I just literally, when I can, not so much in winter, to get down by the water. To get that sense of space and calm. If I can get some calmness. It's a very hectic city, this one, but if I can get some calmness, I find that I can ground myself and it's good. 

But no, I've got, as I said, I've a great husband who balances me out. And the time zone between Australia and here means that most nights I'm on the phone to one family member or another. And that sense of family and some great girlfriends who are my go-to people. And if I said what is really important for me is my girlfriends. And sometimes on my way home from work I'll ring a girlfriend and just have a chat and I'm just calm. Like they are my saviors, my girlfriends. And that's probably the balance between family, friends and exercise. Is it from me, Melissa? But you're right, it's that pace. I don't know, you know. I've only been at it for 20 months here in New York and I take my hat off to yourself who's continuing to thrive in the pace of it over a long period of time. So, I've got to find the stamina to keep going. 

 

[00:34:18] Melissa Fleming

Well, I run too, but definitely not marathons. So, I take my hat off to you and you've had a fascinating life, Cheryl. Thank you so much for sharing it and also all of the learnings along the way and the insights. It's been really meaningful. Thank you. 

 

[00:34:36] Cheryl Pearce

No, thank you. And it has been a wonderful journey and just to be able to still do what I love and love what I do is such a wonderful place to be. 

 

[00:34:50] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.