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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

90% of the world's goods are transported by sea. My guest this week works to keep commercial shipping moving, despite the challenges of war, piracy, and politics. 

 

[00:00:13] Arsenio Dominguez

Whenever you affect shipping, everybody else gets affected, even if you're not part of the conflict. This is not good for anyone. This is not good for the global population, for the global economy, for politics. We need to protect shipping more. 

 

[00:00:36] Melissa Fleming

Arsenio Dominguez is Secretary-General of the International Maritime Organization. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Arsenio.  

 

[00:00:58] Arsenio Dominguez

Thank you. I've been looking forward to this. 

 

[00:01:00] Melissa Fleming

It's really great to be here in London with you at your headquarters. We're actually recording this in your office. 

 

[00:01:06] Arsenio Dominguez

Which is quite a novelty. I may have to do this more often. 

 

[00:01:09] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. Describe the setting of the headquarters. 

 

[00:01:12] Arsenio Dominguez

Well, the first thing that I can tell you is I don't recognize my office right now, but it's a good thing. We're very lucky on the location that the host government, the United Kingdom, gave us because we are by the River Thames, which means that even though it's not the sea or the ocean, the water connection, it's there. It's a purpose-built building. 

So we have a main hall, a plenary, where we can have around 870 delegates sitting at any given time for our meetings. And we can accommodate also the roughly 325 staff, strong members of the organization that help to carry out all the work that we do here, from the regulations to looking after our customers, etc. And in fact with the UN80 initiative we're also optimizing the space of the building and soon we'll start housing some of the small UN agencies that are based here in London. So the building will become more of a UN building rather than just the IMO building. 

 

[00:02:14] Melissa Fleming

Okay, a little UN hub in London. 

 

[00:02:16] Arsenio Dominguez

It is a small UN hub in London. 

 

 

[00:02:17] Melissa Fleming

That's great. Well, you've had a distinguished career, and I'm going to get into that. But first, just briefly - because I think a lot of people have been hearing suddenly about the International Maritime Organization in the news - but just what does it do? It's about shipping. Tell us. 

 

[00:02:36] Arsenio Dominguez

It is about commercial shipping. Naval ships are not covered by any of our regulations, military vessels. So it's all about commercial shipping on international voyages. And our message is very clear. We're here to set up the regulatory standards and assist the Member States in implementing them in order to have safe, secure, sustainable, and environmentally friendly shipping for everybody else's benefit. That's our objective. That's our goal, and that's what we've been working [on] for nearly 80 years now. 

 

[00:03:08] Melissa Fleming

Why is shipping so important? 

 

[00:03:11] Arsenio Dominguez

I think we just have to look at what is happening right now. We carried around 90% of global goods around the world for everybody's benefit. If we look around this office, almost everything here would have been connected to shipping and to the sea. The raw materials, the furniture, the equipment, the wires, would have being transported somewhere from place A to place B by ships. 

And at the same time we don't get unfortunately the visibility and the importance that we deserve. In particular, when it comes to the seafarers. The reality is that we only remember shipping with this maritime accident of the geopolitics because people get affected. The goods are not arriving. The prices of oil and food are going up. That just demonstrates how relevant, how important shipping is in everyday life. 

 

 

[00:04:05] Melissa Fleming

You said 90% of goods are transported via the sea. 

 

[00:04:11] Arsenio Dominguez

That's correct. 

 

[00:04:11] Melissa Fleming

It is true that the only time we ever hear about it is when there's a disruption. And the most recent disruption, the most dramatic, was in the Strait of Hormuz. I know that you've been engaged from the outset, first and foremost, because the goods were trapped. But also, from a human level, there were thousands of seafarers trapped on these boats. What was their life like? 

 

[00:04:44] Arsenio Dominguez

I was talking about 11,000 innocent seafarers trapped for months in the Strait of Hormuz by no fault of their own. And we saw the negative effect. Shipping is resilient and we can actually divert course, find new routes to operate. But we will not be able to transport those cargoes that are required for everyone. 20% of oil, 19% of liquefied natural gas, 13% of fertilizers for global food security comes from that region. You need shipping in order to do that. If you try to do it by road or rail transportation, you can probably carry around 1 or 2 per cent of what shipping carries. 

Then you look at the seafarers. They get trapped in there. You cannot abandon the ship because it becomes a hazard. The ship needs to be manned 24/7. So the seafarers cannot be repatriated. It's difficult to bring new seafarers to take over because who wants to go into a conflict zone? And I wouldn't blame them at all, even if they don't want to go back to work in that region until we have more guarantees. Then it's all the stress, the mental health, the fatigue. And they are just powerless. 

But I had the opportunity to speak to several of them during the conflict, some of them that have managed to actually leave the Strait of Hormuz. And it's incredible how they also help each other. From ship to ship they were sharing supplies because they knew that they were all going through the same bad situation. What they really want people [to do] is to remember them. They feel forgotten because when they turn on the media, all the headlines are about how petrol is going up, how this is affecting the global economy, how things cost three, four times the price that normally they will pay for it, and nobody talks about the seafarer. We need more countries to recognize them as key workers. 

 

[00:06:40] Melissa Fleming

I can't even imagine what that must have been like for them. It must have been frightening. And just not knowing when they could get out. Can you describe kind of the conditions and maybe there's a story about what one of them may have told you. 

 

[00:06:57] Arsenio Dominguez

I can share one story that I actually heard this morning when I was doing an interview. And it was this seafarer that thankfully managed to leave the Strait of Hormuz a few weeks ago. He was talking [about] how they were all stressed and very preoccupied. And they were doing watches and guarding the vessels even overnight, 24/7, just taking it in turns to see if there was a drone or a missile. They knew that they couldn't do anything about it. But that will provide a little bit more of trust and confidence to the rest of the crew that someone was looking out for them. 

Even though they were very realistic. They were putting [on] a brave face. And the captain was doing what he had to do. Maintain them and keeping them as safe as possible and motivated. They were not really showing distress, but he knew that they were worried and preoccupied. And of course, difficulties in contacting their loved ones, their families, because sometimes communications in a war zone are very disrupted. So, the fatigue that they have to go through, all these things keep affecting them. 

So one of the key works that we're going to start doing as well with our social partners is how we help the seafarers after this conflict. Because this kind of mental health is not something that you overcome overnight. And it's not just helping them whilst they go through these difficult situations. It's how we maintain that support afterwards so they can be reintegrated into the professional lives in a way that they feel comfortable, confident and secure to do so. 

 

[00:08:32] Melissa Fleming

So you have a plan, a plan to evacuate the 11,000 seafarers who've been trapped. How does that make you feel to be able to announce such a plan following the peace agreement? 

 

[00:08:45] Arsenio Dominguez

It's a step forward. I take every small gain as a positive step towards what we are all looking forward to, which is the full reopening of the Strait of Hormuz in a safe manner so we can actually resume the trade for everybody's benefit. We did a lot of consultations with all the countries. That includes Iran and the United States. Things are fragile in the region, and I do accept that. That's why I also don't go out and celebrate. It is a step forward. 

And in your question, you know, I am happy that we're actually moving beyond where we were just a couple of weeks ago, but I do accept that there's a lot of work that we still have ahead of us. There are still more consultations, multilateralism. And I'll take a window here to say something that I keep repeating as well. People say that multilateralism is dead, that it's being challenged. I fully disagree with that because multilateralism is the countries. It's also the different stakeholders that come together in these times of crisis to try to find solutions. 

 

 

[00:09:49] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned... I mean, there's been a lot of focus on the Strait of Hormuz, but there are other waterways that have faced attacks. And I'm thinking of the horrific attacks by the Houthis on ships in the Red Sea. Can you describe what worries you most about that situation there. 

 

[00:10:11] Arsenio Dominguez

My biggest concern is how geopolitics are utilizing shipping as leverage and politicizing it. The COVID pandemic was something that affected us all equally. Shipping continued to trade, even though seafarers were very negatively affected. Some of them couldn't leave the ships for two years. 

 

[00:10:31] Melissa Fleming

What? 

 

[00:10:32] Arsenio Dominguez

Absolutely. 

 

[00:10:33] Melissa Fleming

Two years? 

 

[00:10:33] Arsenio Dominguez

They were on board because all the borders were closed. They couldn't even get medical assistance. It was a really sad situation for the seafarers during the COVID pandemic. And then the moment that that finishes, we have the aggression of the Russian Federation into Ukraine. The Black Sea ships are still today being attacked in that region. We had two casualties just four days ago on an incident of drone attacks on vessels in Ukrainian ports, merchant ships, innocent seafarers. 

Then we have the Houthis, who of course saw the opportunity of closing the Bab-el-Mandeb and attacking ships in the Red Sea. The negative effect that it had in the region. The Suez Canal lost 70% of transiting revenue during that period. Again, shipping was resilient. We found another way to operate. And we went south of South Africa around the Cape of Good Hope and maintained the trade. Prices were increasing. People kept suffering from all these negative effects, but we maintained our resilience in the fact that we knew that we needed to provide for everyone. 

And we just finished and at least got a pause. But I'm not going to call it a pause because it's not completely being sorted out, but at least it's in a good phase right now. And then we saw the situation around the Strait of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf. 

So since 2020, seafarers have not, and shipping has not had an easy ride at all. It's been one after another. My message continues to be to everyone. This is to all the world leaders as well. Whenever you affect shipping, everybody else gets affected, even if you're not part of the conflict, the reality is that this is not good for anyone. This is not good for the global population, for the global economy, for politics. We need to protect shipping more. We need to pay more attention to this very important sector that goes unnoticed. 

 

[00:12:42] Melissa Fleming

People take it for granted. 

 

[00:12:43] Arsenio Dominguez

People take it for granted. And the one thing, the one message that I want is - please do not take shipping for granted. Let's not have a short-term memory. Let's not have the goldfish memory and then forget very quickly when one thing happens it gets resolved and then we move to the next one. When you talk about shipping, it's the seafarers. It's those that work on the port. It's the people in offices that have to deal with the legal aspects, that have to deal with handling cargos. So it goes way beyond the sea and that is also something that doesn't get noticed or recognized.

 

 

[00:13:21] Melissa Fleming

What is attractive about taking a job as a seafarer? 

 

[00:13:23] Arsenio Dominguez

I asked that question, particularly to cadets, every time that I had the opportunity to speak to them. And they said, 'It's different cultures. You travel around the world. You become someone that even though is working in a confined space, you are a problem solver. And you live in these little bubbles of families that you're always going to have a relationship with.' So it is very attractive. And of course, in general, it's well paid. We need to do more about improving the payments, as well, of salaries of the seafarers. We need to remunerate them for what they do and for all the risks that they take as well. 

 

[00:14:00] Melissa Fleming

It's very international, right? So they're with all kinds of nationalities on one ship generally. 

 

[00:14:09] Arsenio Dominguez

Shipping is probably one of the most international businesses that you find out there. And it's what also makes it difficult even in geopolitical situations because you have a ship that could have been built in country A, is then registered or flagged in country B, is operated by an owner that comes from country C. Then you have the different nationalities of all the seafarers on board the vessels. Then you have all the cargoes from different owners, from different countries going to different parts of the world. I mean, you cannot find a more international business than shipping. Makes it a challenge for us sometimes to regulate. Interesting at the same time, but also very exciting. 

 

[00:14:52] Melissa Fleming

How much of a threat is piracy? 

 

[00:14:56] Arsenio Dominguez

Piracy is a constant threat for shipping. We had a very challenging time, difficult situation around 2010, 2012 during the height of piracy off the coast of Somalia in the Gulf of Aden. But with piracy, we have measures, practical and operational measures that we have put in place. They work. They are effective, and they allow us to keep ships safe. Maneuverability of the vessels. They can safeguard even with barbed wire on the ship. They can use water cannons to actually repel attacks. 

And of course, we introduced as well, privately armed security personnel that can carry weapons on board and defend the vessels. These are not the crews. These are privately armed people that are trained for that kind of action. And that really took us into a better place when it comes to that part of the world. 

Then there was an increase of piracy in the Gulf of Guinea. But we worked very closely with the countries there, particularly Nigeria in their several mechanisms that we put in place, and we have seen a great reduction of attacks. 

Very recently, the last three or four weeks, we have seen an increase of attacks again in the Gulf of Aden, off the coast of Somalia and Yemen. One of the opinions that are out there that we're still investigating is that because there's been so much attention in the Strait of Hormuz probably then the pirates saw an opportunity to attack the vessels. 

 

[00:16:29] Melissa Fleming

Insurance companies must be very unsettled by this situation. What is your role vis-a-vis insurance companies? Because of course these ships need them to have the assurance that they can move. 

 

[00:16:45] Arsenio Dominguez

This is an interesting topic for me, because we regulate insurance, particularly on some of the liabilities. Several conventions on board the vessels. [Inaudible] have to comply with them. And they go for protection of the passengers, the cargos, oil spills, etc. But we don't regulate directly the insurance companies. They have a challenge in providing insurance, particularly war risk insurance in cases like the Strait of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf. 

But my plea to the insurance companies and to the countries as well is to engage more with us in relation to the safeguards that they need in order for when the situation starts to improve to also start reducing the premiums. Because that helps trade, helps the countries in the regions that have been affected to also come back to the shipping business. 

 

 

[00:17:39] Melissa Fleming

Shipping, of course, comes with a big carbon footprint. Is a green transition possible? 

 

[00:17:46] Arsenio Dominguez

It is. I'm very confident that we will continue to take the necessary steps for the green transition. We recognize the emissions that come from shipping. It is important to also recognize that we are the cleanest mode of mass transportation. When we go back to the initial conversation of the 90% of global goods transported by ships, sometimes it is taken out of context that we are a heavily pollutant industry. But we do accept that we can do better. 

And that's why back in 2023 we adopted a greenhouse gas strategy with a goal to decarbonize the sector by or around 2050. We go along the lines of the technological development that is happening out there, the new technologies like carbon capture and sequestration, as well as the new fuels from hydrogen-derived fuels - ammonia, methanol, ethanol. And even nuclear. It's heavily been discussed on the agenda of the organization as one of the energy sources for the future. It is utilized already in naval assets, but we need to take a step-by-step of how we will move to all the sources of energy, clean sources of energy that would allow us to decarbonize. 

We're not here also looking to affect the economies of oil producing countries. We're working with them on how they also make the transition to cleaner fuels with the cleaner technologies. And of course, we don't have the fuels right now to immediately do a transition overnight. That's the reality. There are cost implications. There's also availability infrastructure that is required, etc. That's why I always call this a marathon and not a sprint race. 

 

[00:19:30] Melissa Fleming

I had the question... I was really struck. I worked for UNHCR for 10 years, the UN Refugee Agency. And I was always looking for compelling stories of refugees, and there were so many. But there was one that I ended up telling that became a book. And it was about a Syrian refugee teenager who took one of these horrific smuggler boats across the Mediterranean Sea with her fianc¨¦. And there were 500 fellow refugees on the boat and the boat sank. And long story short, almost everyone died. 

And she was surviving on a child's floating ring, holding two babies that were not her own, who had been entrusted to her by dying family members. And her fianc¨¦ died. And she then saw a merchant vessel on the fourth day in the water. And they had been told, and I spoke to the captain later, that by another merchant vessel, 'Everyone's dead from the shipwreck. Don't even bother.' And that captain made a decision, 'I can't. I have to check.' And he put on all the lights. He put down a boat and had some of his seafarers go out and try to see if anyone was alive. And they heard the voice of Doaa. And they spent two hours searching for her. And they pulled her and the two babies up into the boat. And Doaa and one of the babies survived thanks to them. 

And it just touched me so much that, you know, they had a destination and they stopped in their journey and decided that it was so important to save those lives. So if you could just speak to like the humanitarian side of shipping. 

 

[00:21:24] Arsenio Dominguez

It's a very tragic story and then I'm so pleased that you're actually sharing that with me because I will use it in the future as well. Masters and seafarers, they are trained for this. And in our mandatory regulations actually, they have an obligation to support and provide assistance to people in distress at sea. And that includes mixed migration, something that we've been tackling at IMO for decades now, particularly in the Mediterranean Sea. 

And we work with countries in the region to see how much we can assist them, how the communications are sent from the Coast Guard in the search-and-rescue operations with ships in the vicinity so they can actually divert course, go in and assist. One of the challenges that we have sometimes is that merchant ships are not equipped to actually house the hundreds of people that sometimes are on board. So they're limited in what assistance they can provide, but they are always ready to provide that support and lend a hand to someone else. And they do it among themselves as we were talking about in the Persian Gulf, but they also do it for all those people that are in distress. 

Every year at IMO we recognize bravery. One of the awards that we grant is in recognition of when seafarers go above and beyond their duties, their obligations to actually save lives. And I'm very pleased to say that on a yearly basis, we've received more than 50 nominations of stories of seafarers [inaudible]. Some of them have been posthumous awards because the seafarers have actually lost their lives in carrying out these duties, in actually risking themselves in order to save someone else. 

 

[00:23:17] Melissa Fleming

I'm curious about how you first became interested in the sea and maritime issues. I know you're originally from Panama. Did growing up near the Panama Canal influence you? 

 

[00:23:29] Arsenio Dominguez

The reality is yes, because I don't have a family shipping background. There was no relation, no one in my family was actually engaged in shipping directly. Not even my father. He was actually in the energy sector. That's one of the ironies. But since I was growing up, I always saw those huge ships just floating in and out, just going through the Panama Canal. And that was one of those areas, that was one of those things that I thought, 'Oh, that's... How does that happen?' 

So as I started to get into high school and looking for what to study, that's when shipping again came back to me. And I thought I want to study something that first I'm not going to lie, probably would have opened an opportunity for me to work at the Panama Canal. Because [I'm] very proud of being Panamanian and all the services that the Panama Canal provides for everyone around the world. And that was one of the attractions. And that's when I decided that naval architecture will probably create that pathway for me. 

I also wanted to study abroad. And that was it. I went to Mexico. I spent six years there studying naval architecture. Then went back to Panama. One of my first jobs was in a shipyard. So I immediately managed to get working in the sector. And it was one of the most rewarding jobs because it really taught me the practical aspects that I didn't know everything. I thought that because I graduated and had all these titles hanging on the wall, immediately I was a know-it-all. It brought me back down to earth very quickly and I couldn't be more grateful. 

It allowed me also to develop as the type of manager that I am today because one of the first things that I wanted to do is to get to know the people that were doing the work. How they were doing it. What were the challenges. How could I help them and how could learn from them. And for me that was a first step into just going up and up through the ranks, always learning because it's important that as a manager, you know the answers or you know how to find the answers in order to support people. 

 

 

[00:25:43] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, I'm really struck by your enthusiasm, your optimism. Who influenced your personality? Was it your mother, your father? 

 

[00:25:53] Arsenio Dominguez

It's my parents, but mostly my mother. She's always been... You know, I'm so proud of my mother. That the fact that when I was going to be appointed as Secretary-General, I said to her, 'You have to be there. You probably don't understand the magnitude of what is happening to me right now, but I need you there.' Because my mother is a very, very strong woman who didn't finish high school. But she was always, you know, trying to support the family. And when I decided to study abroad, both my parents did everything possible to support me. You know, she was getting additional jobs on the side in order to help me. And I've always been very grateful for all that. 

And the fact that, you know, as a woman coming from Panama, a country that is changing, but it was difficult for women to actually progress and be professionals and be more independent. She was always finding a way to just keep food on the table, to do things for us, for us not to see any hardship, any challenges and everything. And she was always smiling. She was also always keeping it positive. I never saw my mother all distraught and, 'What is going to happen? How am I going to do this and that?' 

And for me, immediately was the that's the best approach in life. There's too much negativity out there. And if you become negative, how can you actually come out of that shell or help someone or be able to actually try to influence people into making decisions? So I take everything as a challenge. She inspired me in that approach. And for me, the glass is always half full because the more that I can actually do something, the more it drives me to continue to grow personally, professionally and assist others. 

I like sharing my stories. I don't like... I don't know if I'm breaking a little bit of a mold here, but even with all the stuff I said that I will be a secretary-general, that I will not change me. The role will not change me. The Member States trusted me when they elected me to lead the organization. They know me. They know the way I am, and I was not going to change. You want people to feel comfortable to tell you anything, to learn from them, to just keep growing. 

And that has been my case for every single step that I have taken in my career. From when I started with the Panama Maritime Authority that introduced me to IMO as a delegate. I spent 20 years on that side and I chaired meetings, including environmental committees. So I knew IMO in and out. Then joined the Secretariat back in 2017. Several roles in the Secretariat. And always looking for what would it be like to be Secretary-General? What would I do? What would bring into the role that is different, that will change shipping, will change IMO? 

I like the UN80 approach because I feel that as the UN, we have done great jobs together, but we need to modernize. We need to improve. We need change the way we do to adapt to the people, to the younger generations. We shouldn't expect them to adapt to us. So that's the kind of person that I am. But all that, the foundation is my parents and in particular, my mom. 

 

[00:29:06] Melissa Fleming

Did she come to your inauguration as Secretary-General? 

 

[00:29:10] Arsenio Dominguez

She was here. Oh, this was embarrassing. I managed to keep it together. If you have the opportunity to go to a plenary hall. We have a balcony. So I asked her to go over there. And of course, when I had to give a speech and appreciate the trust from the membership, I tried really hard not to look up, because I knew that she was going to make me crack and cry. I'm a crybaby. I have no shame. I don't embarrass easily. So if I feel emotional, I'm going to be emotional. 

But at one point, I just couldn't help it. And I just looked up and I could see her that she couldn't stop smiling, but in a flood of tears. And at the same time, I just go, 'Okay, this is an incredible moment for me.' And somehow, I managed to keep the voice from cracking. But I tell you, once I actually sat down back on the bench, I couldn't hold it anymore. But at least, it was just incredible for me to have my mother there living that with me because I'm not here on my own. I owe so many people - good managers that I have in life, the support of my family, support of family and friends, the support of the staff of the organization, colleagues throughout my career. 

I don't take credit. I'm actually not good at receiving praises and things like that because it's not something that I do on my own. It's something that do as a team effort. But I have to say, and every time that I have the opportunity, I have thanked my mother for everything that she has done for me and my brother and the way that she's been very positive in life. And I think that it's been the best example that I had. So she's always my role model. Whenever somebody asks me, 'Who's your role model?' I say, 'That's very easy. It's my mother.' 

 

[00:30:59] Melissa Fleming

Well, she very obviously lives in you, so. 

 

[00:31:02] Arsenio Dominguez

That's... Thank you. 

 

[00:31:03] Melissa Fleming

There is a last question I have to ask. It's the name of this podcast. What keeps you awake at night? 

 

 

[00:31:10] Arsenio Dominguez

What I can do next. If I'm honest with you, I don't really go with too many worries in my head. I need to relax. But if there's something that happens to me is that when I wake up in the middle of the night it's because I just have an idea. It's something else that I want to do. And I'm still learning to be patient. I'm not a perfect manager. I'm learning to be patient because I want things done yesterday. But I know that that's not possible in many areas of our work. The fact that my brain is always working and thinking into what's next. What can we do to improve the life of the staff, the life for the seafarers? 

The way that we do things in the UN at IMO and all that is actually what keeps me up at night. But I always see that as a positive thing because I can disconnect. People think that I don't disconnect at all. And I tell them, 'Trust me. I do rest at night. I'm not planning to have plastic surgery just to pretend that I'm actually fine.' People will notice it. And my team notices it when I'm actually getting to the point that, 'Oh, he needs a little bit of a break. Let's give him some space.' But I'm always thinking about what's next. I need to be active. I can't just stay idle. And I suppose that if you ask me what keeps me up at night, it¡¯s just thinking what's next. 

 

[00:32:41] Melissa Fleming

Well, there's plenty for you to do given the state of our world and the state of the bodies of water that are under attack. 

 

[00:32:50] Arsenio Dominguez

But we're moving forward. And that's what I want people to always focus on - on the positive. It's too easy to focus on the negative. Let's not be too subjective at times. And let's take things for what they are. There's a reality that we are all going through. The world is changing. The politics are changing. It doesn't mean that we cannot maintain a positive approach to this and learn from all of it. We have to adapt. We want shipping to evolve and be greener. Politics and the world are changing as well. We're looking and finding ways to adapt. And I think that we're not doing too badly, actually. It can be better. It can always be better. But let's keep the positivism alive here. 

 

[00:33:36] Melissa Fleming

So you are hopeful that we might have safer seas and straits and canals and greener shipping. 

 

[00:33:44] Arsenio Dominguez

Yes, because conflicts come and go. We've seen several around the world. Even if we look at the Strait of Hormuz. The Suez Canal was closed for six years during the conflict, then the tanker war. The Strait Hormuz was an area of very little trade, and we have overcome all that. We overcame COVID, which actually affected us all. And we keep taking steps forward. 

That's why right now, I go one by one. First approach - evacuate the seafarers. Second approach - demine the region and make it safer. Third approach - maintain the dialogue with all the relevant parties. What are the actions and the measures that we can put there to bring back the confidence and the trust? Bit by bit, we bring trade. Hopefully, we will not have any more conflicts spiking up around the world. We already have a few that we need to sort out. And that would allow everybody... Again, everybody to get engaged and to realize that conflict doesn't really bring us any benefits at all. Maybe for a few, but not for the large majority. So I always remain optimistic and positive that things will get better. 

 

 

[00:34:49] Melissa Fleming

Arsenio, thank you so much. 

 

[00:34:51] Arsenio Dominguez

No, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. 

 

[00:34:55] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.