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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week told me working at the United Nations is one of the biggest honors of her life. 

 

[00:00:07] Annalena Baerbock

We need this place where countries, big and small, rich and poor, are coming together and have an equal say and an equal vote.

 

[00:00:25] Melissa Fleming

Annalena Baerbock is the President of the 80th Session of the UN General Assembly ¨C and the former Foreign Minister of Germany. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. 

Welcome Annalena,

 

[00:00:50] Annalena Baerbock

Thanks for having me on the show. 

 

[00:00:52] Melissa Fleming

You have been appointed as President of the UN General Assembly. This is a top diplomatic position, but it's a short one. It's just a year. How do you feel looking ahead to the next few months? You've already come through a few. And these are especially challenging times ¨C the UN is incredibly under pressure. How are you feeling? 

 

[00:01:15] Annalena Baerbock

We have a German saying: ¡°you jump in cold water, so you should not be shy.¡± You should be ready to kick start from the moment on, and most of all, you have to be laser focused on your priorities. And this is why I made very clear that the priorities of this 80th Session are quite defined by the UN80 reform. 

As you said, the UN is under heavy pressure financially and politically. So, the most important task for every high-ranking actor here is to keep the United Nations not only alive, but to make it stronger by reforms. Second, is the selection of the new Secretary-General. 

 

 

[00:01:57] Melissa Fleming

We're going to get to that.

 

[00:01:58] Annalena Baerbock

Today's a lucky day, yeah? So, we have a cliffhanger here for later on in the interview. But this is the defined second priority. And the third one ¨C representing 193 very diverse Member States ¨C is actually when I swore my oath on the Charter of the United Nations to live up to the principles and values of this Charter every day, as they are, in my point of view, the life insurance of all 193 Member States. 

 

[00:02:30] Melissa Fleming

So the Charter you mentioned. What does the charter mean to you?

 

[00:02:35] Annalena Baerbock

It has different dimension. First of all, by my profession, I studied Public International Law. And for me, this is therefore something which means a lot to me, because I studied the whole text. I had a great class. I studied in London, where there were, like, many different students from all around the world. And back then, we kind of went through the different articles of the Charter in Chinese ¨C or in Mandarin ¨C in Russian, in Arabic. And the professor always underlined there, you can see that also a legal document is, in the end, a political compromise, because the slightly differences in each language already underlined that back then, compromise is the DNA of this institution. 

So, yeah, I've been kind of dealing with the Charter all over my adult life. First at university, then getting into German Parliament. Our constitution in Germany is based on the Charter given to our history, so this is highly connected to it, and then especially also as a Foreign Minister. So, it meant really a lot to me, personally, to be sworn in on the original document of the Charter. And if people could see, I was too afraid to touch the Charter. So, my hand was kind of one centimeter above it. 

 

[00:04:05] Melissa Fleming

I remember being there at your swearing in, in the General Assembly, and you looked really moved being sworn in with the Charter. And yes, I did see there was a close up in the video of your hand, and it was kind of shaking. Was that because it just felt like such a an important moment?

 

[00:04:26] Annalena Baerbock

Yes, I actually, I was touched, because, kind of, this job is the biggest honor of my life. I mean, before ¨C this is known ¨C I've been Foreign Minister, which is also an incredible responsibility and an incredible honor. But, especially after serving as a Foreign Minister, where you represent your own country and you have more your national view. 

But you get by the international diplomacy, the sense of how diverse ¨C and I always said, how challenging, but also how wonderful our world is. And now, besides all the challenges here in the United Nations Headquarters, every day, you learn something new about the world, about the cultures around the world. And so therefore it is really a joy every day, besides all the challenges and all the crisis around the world. 

 

 

[00:05:23] Melissa Fleming

What exactly is your role as President of the General Assembly?

 

[00:05:28] Annalena Baerbock

A thousand things. The most visible one is, like, chairing the meetings of all the Member States, calling the speakers, looking that they stick to the speaking time so everybody can be heard. Because if you want to hear 193 it can take some time, so it's hours after hours. But already in these times, setting up the agenda of a meeting. For example, today we had the High-Level Meeting on the Fight Against Trafficking of Persons. 

And the question: Who do you invite? Do you give a voice to survivors? Do you give a voice to women? Do you give a voice to children? This is also a political decision. This is also the way to ask ourselves, who does the United Nations represent these times? Is it only head of governments, or is it also the people around the world? 

 

[00:06:18] Melissa Fleming

So what did you decide? Did you invite victims of trafficking? 

 

[00:06:23] Annalena Baerbock

Yes, and this has been done before. So, this is no innovation. But for example, at the Opening of the High-Level Week, every year ¨C also before, when I was speaking there as a Foreign Minister ¨C people complained: ¡°Well, there were hardly any women speaking.¡± So, I said to my team ¨C and actually also here others in the Secretariat ¨C you know, ¡°I don't open the debate if under the top 10 speakers ¨C Heads of State, or Presidents ¨C there won't be any woman.¡± 

Because in the past, people told you we couldn't find any woman. Well, unfortunately, if you look at the representation, it's not 50/50 among the 193 Member States, but there are more than 25 Heads of States being female. So, out of these 25, you can put a woman in the in the first row. And then we had also the Beijing Declaration, celebrating women¡¯s rights for 30 years, the day before the High-Level Week. And having all these women speaking after each other ¨C it was a very funny situation, because then I think at number 13, there was a first male Head of State speaking saying: well, now we heard so many women, it's really time for men. And the Deputy Secretary-General, Amina Mohammed, was sitting next to me, and I whispered to her, ¡°now they know how we felt all these times.¡± 

And then there are other tasks as well, meeting with all the Ambassadors, meeting with all the Heads of State, the Climate Conference. So, it doesn't get boring. 

 

[00:07:55] Melissa Fleming

No. You just spoke about the role of women and women being at the table. Actually, I think you're only the third woman?

 

[00:08:06] Annalena Baerbock

Fifth. 

 

[00:08:07] Melissa Fleming

Okay. Fifth woman President of the General Assembly, the first from your region. But what does it mean for you to be a woman in that role?

 

[00:08:18] Annalena Baerbock

So it's five out of eighty. Since eighty years. And this underlines again that, obviously, all around the world, it has been harder for decades for women to have the equal rights and representation. So, there's a great saying ¨C I think it came from Africa ¨C ¡°If you can see it, you can be it.¡± And this is why it matters so much also to be a younger generation. Young women can see out there: you can be also in the midst of the 40s, and could chair the General Assembly. You can be a woman. You can make it. 

And I know for myself how important it was to have women before me taking the steps. So, I'm always saying we are standing on the shoulders of, actually, the female giants before us, because they have had to fight so much harder than my generation today to have the chance to get into this position. And even though we are facing backlashes, I think the thanks is today that we are interconnected as female leaders around the world. 

 

 

 

 

[00:09:25] Melissa Fleming

It was interesting. I read in a German newspaper ¨C I read you quoted that in this role as PGA, it is your role to be to sit and be silent at times. So ?zu sitzen und zu schweigen¡°. How easy do you find that? Especially when you used to be Germany's Foreign Minister, and also co-chair of the Green Party there.

 

[00:09:47] Annalena Baerbock

Actually, because many of these journalists also said, ¡°Well, can you actually do it?¡± And I said, ¡°You know what? It's also quite relieving.¡± Because the pressure you are facing ¨C I describe it now as a woman ¨C but many, many high-ranking politicians, but especially a woman, again, everything you're doing, it's in the spotlight. Everybody has an opinion. The wrong shoes, the voice is wrong. What you said is wrong. So, having now also a situation where I'm working more behind the scenes is also something which is, yeah, in a way, relieving. 

And it doesn't mean that you are having less power, because the question is, how do you find power? Bring together people to find a compromise. You have to read the others. It's not about convincing others to come where you are. But I think if you want to be a good diplomat, and if you want to be a good, also then, party leader or actually a good person, to find compromise. You always have to be ready and capable to put yourself in the shoes of the others. To be a strong politician, a strong leader, I think you have to be very open-minded and being interested in many topics. And sharing these sessions is, for me, very interesting, because I'm actively listening. Actually, sometimes people see me writing and I'm taking notes of what people are saying. Because, again, you learn every time something new. 

 

[00:11:14] Melissa Fleming

I actually noticed that at occasions where I was with you, at the same event. That you would often listen first, take some notes, and then you would immediately integrate what they said into your speech. Is that something that you do often?

 

[00:11:31] Annalena Baerbock

Yes, because I think the whole purpose of exchange is actually not only reading your own prepared speech, but trying to integrate what others have said, if you agree to support it, but also to disagree. I think you can convince more if you're taking up the argument by the others and say, ¡°Well, but I think on that part, you have been mistaken,¡± or ¡°If you want to understand where I'm coming from¡­¡± And this is also the situation where we need majority and compromises. I think this is very important to understand not only the perception, but the goal, or sometimes also the personal sensitivity of the other person is. 

 

[00:12:21] Melissa Fleming

Well, we are living in an increasingly polarized world. Do you think the UN can bridge divides? And also, the work of the General Assembly? Can it pull people together? 

 

[00:12:34] Annalena Baerbock

It must. There's no alternative. And I mean, we have these discussions out there in the world, but frankly speaking, they don't know international politics at all. If you argue, ¡°Maybe we should build another institution.¡± I mean, we need this institution more than ever. Because we have seen that also in the High-Level Week, Heads of States from all over the world were coming to New York ¨C yes, they didn't agree on everything, but this was a place where they all discussed. This was the place where they fought. This was the place where we faced, also the difficulties of the world. But the world is not perfect. We can see that every day. So, we need this place where countries, big and small, rich and poor, are coming together and have an equal say and an equal vote. 

And this is also something I discussed with many smaller countries here. I mean, it's really a privilege to every country that they have an equal vote. So, I was underlining, use your power. You have a power here if you unite with people and with countries all around the world. And we've seen that lately, that this cross-regional cooperation is increasing, and I think this is a good thing. 

 

 

[00:13:49] Melissa Fleming

There's a lot of criticism of the Security Council. That it has failed to prevent the conflicts and the wars that are happening all over the world. So, do some believe that the General Assembly could play a stronger role in the field and the arena of peace and security?

 

[00:14:10] Annalena Baerbock

Yes, and these calls are increasing. And this is why I nominated ¨C  this is also part of my job ¨C bringing together co-chairs, or co-facilitators as we call it here, to move forward processes. And one process, it's called IGN ¨C so the process of reforming the Security Council. And this is a debate older than 15 years. And obviously we have not succeeded, that the current situation ¨C or the situation for a while ¨C that the Security Council is being blocked and paralyzed. And by that many people feel that the whole United Nations is not capable to react to war and crises, to overcome this situation. But this needs unanimity or at least needs the agreement also from Security Council members.

And we just had a debate again on the reform of Security Council, and there were over 100 Heads of States also in High-Level Week, saying we need a reform. They don't agree on how the reform looks like, so there are different models. But keeping up this discussion, in my point of view, is very, very important, because it also defines the image of the United Nations around the world. 

 

[00:15:26] Melissa Fleming

Shows how many countries are actually aligned. 

 

[00:15:28] Annalena Baerbock

Yeah. 

 

[00:15:29] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. What keeps you awake at night when you think of all these conflicts in the world and all the trouble and the polarization?

 

[00:15:37] Annalena Baerbock

Today at the Closing of the Human Trafficking Debates, I said, if we are praising here, the survivors of human trafficking ¨C and I met some of these, especially women, I mean, the strongest people I've ever met in the world. I met a woman who could free herself after eight years of capture by Boko Haram in Nigeria. She was one of them who was kidnapped from school, and then she had two babies, obviously been born out of rape. And she tried to escape twice, but they kept her children. So, she went back, and then she succeeded. And I met this woman. She was really, really tiny woman, but so strong. And she said, you know, all I want is that my children can go to school and that I ¨C and I found that very important, and it's interesting ¨C get back the years of school which were stolen from me when I was 15 years old. 

And I mean, to have this power to not give in after the worst thing you can be through in your life is for me, when I'm awake at night, remembering saying, and I'm lying here in my comfortable bed and I'm thinking of giving up. No, there's no chance. If these survivors keep on fighting, then we have to do it as well.

 

[00:16:58] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you've been a fighter too. I know that you've faced as a woman ¨C a young woman politician in Germany. You told me this, that you faced a lot of hate and attacks online and yet you put yourself out there, and you seem to wake up every day, and you know, you don't quit. You just keep going. I mean, how have you felt about those online attacks?

 

 

[00:17:28] Annalena Baerbock

Unfortunately, they are, by this, a reality to every woman who kind of dares to speak up. This is why I feel an obligation to speak about it. It's not the shame of women. The shame has to change sides. It's the perpetrators who do something wrong. 

And for myself, it was another great woman leader when I was facing the most difficult time ¨C because I ran as Chancellor, so, this is kind of Prime Minister in my country, in Germany ¨C and there have been fake news and always sexual related, because those men who don't want to have women in power, they hit on this female side on sexual abuse. There's a study: 96% of deep fake related to sexual activities is towards women. So, it's set up against women if it's not happening to men.

So, this woman leader, she told me back then, they want to see you fall. And don't give them that success. And this is what I'm thinking every day. If I'm being attacked harder, then I try harder. And for me, also showing that I'm enjoying what I'm doing. Because, again, this is something, what the haters hate most. To have women out there who are not doing jobs like men, but who are doing this in their female capacity with also the female strengths. And there are some aspects which women maybe cannot do better because of their gender, but somehow in society, yeah, we dress more colorful, and this is something positive. So, who said that you women shouldn't wear a dress in parliaments, but unfortunately, it was kind of the attitude where I'm coming from. 

So, I learned from many, many women ¨C especially from Africa, who always dress in bright colors ¨Cdress like a woman, lead like a woman, fight like a woman, and don't copy everything how male leadership is being defined. But obviously, if you lead like a woman, if you chair like a woman, this is being seen ¨C not by all men, but by some men ¨C as something offensive, because they cannot compete on that level. So, this is why I'm also telling young girls, when you're being attacked by your voice, how you look, how you dress, this is only because they cannot compete with you on that one. 

It's also showing emotions. Why are women being criticized for showing emotions? I had the same ¨C I went what I described refugee camps, and when children were telling me the worst things, what happened to them. Sometimes I had tears in my eyes because I felt them. And then journalists asked me, ¡°Well, can you be a leader if you have tears in your eyes?¡± And I told them, ¡°You know what? I think the only leader who can show that they are listening to the children can be a true leader.¡± Because obviously there are strategies, male strategies. You think about something different. If somebody tells you the worst things and you don't want to cry, you think about football, or you think about something else. But is this leadership? Is this strength? Not at all. 

 

[00:20:56] Melissa Fleming

You actually really enter into this toxic space of social media very actively. And, do you have a message to those who control social media platforms that you know they allow all this hate to circulate that particularly targets women in leadership?

 

[00:21:19] Annalena Baerbock

My message would be, show true leadership and regulate your platforms. But as the world is as it is, and I know that some just want to make money, or they don't care, it's a responsibility of government. I mean, we have laws everywhere around the world: that you are not allowed to slap a woman in her face, and also not a man on the street to spit at somebody else. In many, many countries, it's even not allowed to spread fake news. 

But somehow, in the digital world, everybody is just watching. If you have hate comments, if you ¨C I don't know if this is allowed on your show to say it, but I told at some moment, also to the German public to say, ¡°You know what my social media team has to deal with? To delete, every day, [bleep] on our platforms.¡± And male journalists did not believe that, because never, ever did they get a vagina being sent to anybody? But this is something like sick. This is something which is forbidden, but the platforms do not regulate it. 

So, yes, we need stronger regulation, also in the digital space. And again, it's not about me. And this is also what I would like to say, I have protection here. I have protection for daily life. I have all the legal support, also for social media. But this is the daily life of our teenage daughters. This is a day-in-the-life of millions of girls all around the world. 58% of teenagers have faced digital violence in their life. So, this is also about security for our children, and by that, prevention for further crises around the world. 

 

[00:23:10] Melissa Fleming

That is a case that we need to continue to make. One of the things ¨C the major things ¨C that you'll be dealing with is the appointment of the next Secretary-General. What are your hopes for the next SG?

 

[00:23:25] Annalena Baerbock

The selection process will tell a lot about the United Nations in the year 2025. And if we live up to our principles, to our own credibility, then obviously it should be a person who can lead this institution in the next decade, where we speak about artificial intelligence, where we speak about a total new form of communication. With fake news, you could start a war. So, the question will be, can this institution find somebody to define the future of the United Nations, and is it the person representing all. So also the question: if after 80 years, it can be, for the first time, a female Secretary-General, will tell something about the credibility of this institution. 

 

[00:24:16] Melissa Fleming

Since you started and when you came, when you arrived in September, the UN humanitarian organizations were reeling from massive budget cuts ¨C having to lay off thousands and thousands of staff around the world, and having a particular effect on a lot of the countries at war and the people who've been forced to flee and really vulnerable places that you're seeing from a political perspective here. 

How do you feel about these humanitarian cuts, and what would your message be to the governments who were funding these humanitarian organizations like UNHCR, like IOM, like UNICEF, World Food Programme, WHO?

 

[00:25:03] Annalena Baerbock

These cuts are disaster. Because we are speaking here not about numbers and statistics. We are literally speaking about lives. If we are cutting on the humanitarian field, then we are cutting on nutrition for babies ¨C so, baby food. So, we have now the situation that the World Food Programme and UNICEF are not delivering baby food packages anymore, as they did. So babies are starving. So, this is the reality. 

Also, the cuts on the peace building, they are dramatic. This means we are facing situations that we could reach stability ¨C obviously not peace in some regions ¨C but at least some kind of stability. And if Blue Helmets are not there anymore the risk of, really, open wars is increasing. So, it really needs to focus on the three pillars: Peace and Security, Sustainable Development and Human Rights altogether. 

 

[00:25:56] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, they're all interlinked. And they are ¨C it's very difficult to prove that you've prevented a war, or you've, you know, created stability. Or it's very elusive, all of the investment and getting kids in school, and providing vaccines until it goes away.

 

[00:26:17] Annalena Baerbock

Yeah, as we have learned from COVID, there is no glory in prevention, unfortunately. But what COVID also told us, if we are not investing in prevention ¨C and SDGs is the best peace prevention we can have, delivering on the Sustainable Development Goals, then we would face another disaster like the pandemic in other fields altogether. So, there's no way. Even though there's no glory in prevention, we have to invest in prevention.

 

 

[00:26:43] Melissa Fleming

I understand you have two young daughters, ten and fourteen. Did they come to New York with you? 

 

[00:26:49] Annalena Baerbock

Yes. 

 

[00:26:50] Melissa Fleming

How are they dealing with that? 

 

[00:26:51] Annalena Baerbock

They are very happy that their mother is not in daily media politics anymore, because I think this is the other side. So, I hardly speak about them to protect them. But they love it here, because obviously going to another country, learning another language, is always a great opportunity. But also, because if I go out in the streets, nobody recognizes their mother, at least most of the time. This is, I would say, what they enjoy most.

 

[00:27:22] Melissa Fleming

Well, people recognize you around these halls. And you have generated quite a group of fans. So, while there is ¨C and there probably was much more when you were a German politician ¨C there is some hate speech, there is a lot of admiration. You're seen as a role model to young women. Do you take strength in that?

 

[00:27:47] Annalena Baerbock

I would lie if I would not say that if you get positive feedback, this is also encouraging, but I think the bigger message behind it is that we get such a blurred picture because of social media, because there it's so focused on hate. 

And again, I love facts and statistics. Hate clicks six times better than good news. But the reality is, out there in the world, people like teamwork, people like peace, people like friendly persons. People like, also, if somebody is falling, but like regaining power again. This is also what I had to tell myself. And I'm telling again, many young women every time you're being hit like on social media, realize this is not the real world out there. And, for example on Twitter, X, again, a great advice I got: just change your password. Do not look at it for a certain amount of time. Because then you realize in the real life, many, many people do not care about comments on the internet. 

 

[00:29:01] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, just maybe don't look at them. That's a really good advice. You were very young when you started politics, and you had quite a stellar career as a politician in Germany. What pushed you towards politics and public service in the first place?

 

[00:29:18] Annalena Baerbock

Actually, I wanted to become a journalist, but I was not good enough. No, I was as I said, studying Public International Law. Because I was, I don't know why, but I was always very interested in the peace and security topics. Back in the ¡®90s in Germany, there were many refugees coming from the Western Balkans. So also in my school, and I was confronted with similar situations as we're seeing right now, that there were just girls like me, but they also faced a problem that some were talking badly about refugees. And I was really interested on what was going on there, in the Western Balkan wars. 

And actually, my grandma she was sixteen when the Second World War happened, and she was German, so Germany was a perpetrator. But she has also been through horrible things of rape and all these horrible stories of war. And she always told me, when I was a little kid, shy away from the bad men. This was obviously about rape, without telling me that this is rape. Always telling me, you can praise God every day that you live in peace. So as a child, I didn't really understand it. And then when we had the wars in the 1990s again in Europe and Eastern Europe, she was telling me ¨C and I spent a lot of time with her ¨C ¡°Oh, my God, the women are going through the same horrors we have been through.¡± 

And somehow, obviously this influenced me a lot. So, I wanted to become, actually, a war reporter writing about these atrocities. And this is why I studied public international law. I was working for some newspapers, but back then, also for, like, the local stuff. And then I told myself, well, maybe if you want to understand politics, you should do an internship. So, I started an internship at the European Parliament. 

And this then brought me, at the beginning of my twenties, actually into politics. Before I was really into sports and everything else. And then I could not let it go. Then I found it so interesting, and I got more and more engaged. But again realizing now also in the last 20 years, because you mentioned also you're very young, this is also a very industrialized countries approach. And I realized also how conservative my own country, with regard to female leadership, but also engagement of young people is. Because now, traveling around the world in Germany, everybody said, ¡°First woman after 150 years, oh, she's forty. Oh, she's having little kids.¡± Some even say, ¡°Can you do the job with little kids?¡± And then when I started as a Foreign Minister, meeting so many colleagues, I thought, ¡°Wow, there are many being thirty or being also beginning of forty, and it's just normal.¡± 

 

 

[00:32:07] Melissa Fleming

You were a child in the 1980s. You were from Hanover, which was then West Germany. Can you remember anything from that time?

 

[00:32:17] Annalena Baerbock

Unfortunately, not a lot. When I'm watching these days, documentaries about 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, I'm sometimes thinking: Oh, it's too bad that I wasn't older to really experience what a miracle this was, because that dictatorship could be ended by the people themselves, without shooting many support from other Eastern European countries ¨C actually, because we had Solidarno?? before in Poland and others going on. 

But also, then around the world, traveling as a Foreign Minister so many asked me, so how did you do the reunification? How did you succeed also beforehand? That other countries around you could forgive you? So this always taught me, even though, unfortunately, I was too little to really realize when I was eight what this meant ¨C that the Berlin Wall fell. But looking backwards, this really taught me that fighting for the right thing is worth it, even if it takes 30 years, even if it takes decades. Because one day you will succeed.

And yeah, therefore also the piece of the Berlin Wall here in the garden of the United Nations is again something which makes me very emotional, because it shows that miracles are possible, and that this piece of wall once stood in a total different country, which is now united.

 

[00:33:55] Melissa Fleming

It is an amazing piece of the wall too there, and it is united. And I just, you know, finally, want to ask you ¨C you did go into quite progressive politics. I wonder, did your parents have any influence over you in terms of going into politics or shaping your political career?

 

[00:34:20] Annalena Baerbock

No, my mother was actually ¨C she got me when she was 21. She was still in school back then for being a kindergartner. And my father was, or is, an engineer. So, they were totally outside of politics. And again, countries are totally different, and in my country, there's no tradition that you come from a political family to become a politician. It's rather the opposite. I think if you would come from famous chancellors beforehand, I think it would be quite difficult, actually, in my country, to really succeed. 

But I mean civil engagement has always been quite strong, and again, out of the experience of fascism and the Second World War, my country was the support of all the neighboring countries around it, which could forgive Germany back then, and also the Allies bringing democracy to Germany. But with a very strong civil society, we do have it even in our constitution. So going to demonstrations, expressing your views on different thoughts. 

We had demonstration when I was a kid on the war in Iraq. We had a demonstration with regard to Chernobyl, when one of the nuclear power plants exploded. I can remember that very well. I was not allowed to go play outside. So, kind of engagement in society was something kind of common also in my childhood. 

 

 

[00:35:54] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, that was the ¡®80s, the anti-nuclear demonstrations, yeah. Is the UN still the place to help solve problems like the reunification of Germany?

 

[00:36:06] Annalena Baerbock

Yes, but I would say also back in times, it was not only the United Nations. It were many other actors around it. It was a people, and we should never forget that I mentioned Solidarno?? in Poland ¨C it was, we called it the peaceful revolution in Germany. It was those people in churches, in schools saying, ¡°We want to stand up for our own freedom, for our civil rights.¡± 

It was a civil movement. So, this is why, also the strong support of the United Nations, for the people and for civil engagement, I think, is the strongest assets, because they are the ones who can actually make miracles happen. 

 

[00:36:51] Melissa Fleming

Annalena, thank you so much. 

 

[00:36:53] Annalena Baerbock

Thanks as well. 

 

[00:36:55] Melissa Fleming

It was great having this chat with you and learning more about your life.

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor, Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN, Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.