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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week says she never looks back. 

 

[00:00:04] Amina J. Mohammed

I'm just looking forward. I think that if you go back, you just might stay there. It's one of these, you know, inner things that you have. I'm going to go forward. I've done this job. I'm not looking back. I've been the best that I possibly can. I think there's too much to do going forward than to just dwell on the past. What I do with the past is learn from it. 

 

[00:00:31] Melissa Fleming

From her childhood days in rural Nigeria, Amina Mohammed has been consumed with a mission to make life better for people across the world. These days, she is the UN Deputy Secretary-General. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Amina.

 

[00:01:00] Amina J. Mohammed

Thank you so much, Melissa. Lovely to be with you. 

 

 

[00:01:03] Melissa Fleming

You have one of the biggest jobs... Well, the second biggest job in the United Nations, maybe. There must be so much keeping you awake at night. What is doing so right now? 

 

[00:01:16] Amina J. Mohammed

What keeps me awake now is, I think it's the infuriation that the world has lost its moral compass on issues that we care so deeply about that are enshrined in what gave birth to us - the Charter. So, I don't worry about the money because I know we can always go fight for it. What I do worry about is when we lose our way on principles, on values, on the rule of law, because those are safeguards. They're safeguards for the poorest, those that would have no recourse to justice if those things were not in place, if we didn't stand up for those values. 

And so, when you start to pull the rug from under the feet of values and our principles and human dignity, then how to reverse that? How to respond to a world that says, 'What are you doing, United Nations?' When we see what is happening in Gaza that to go for food you have to die. That is not right. And how do we change that? So, what keeps me up at night is how do we convince leadership in the world to reverse that? What is it...? What's the switch? What's the hook? I mean, what more can we do to change that? I think we've lost our way. And I don't know how to deal with that because these are things we took for granted. 

 

[00:02:34] Melissa Fleming

Is there anything that makes you hopeful in this kind of really tough moment for the UN where we're facing, you know, massive funding cuts and, as you said, kind of an assault on our questioning of everything that we've been fighting for? 

 

[00:02:50] Amina J. Mohammed

I think, two things. First, recognition that we've never been more equipped in this world to deal with the problems that we have. Is it technology? Is it education? Is it connectivity? We have to be thankful that we've got a lot more today than we had 50, 80 years ago to do stuff with. The problem is it's only in the hands of few and we've got to get it out to everyone. So that's the one side that makes me hopeful is I know that there's toolbox there. I know that there is a resource piece there. 

But what really makes me hopeful is the intergenerational opportunity. That young people, we can connect with them. You know, I always say to my kids, 'I'm going to step, not aside. I'm going to step behind you. So, when you're getting ready to fall, I'm going to push you forward. Because what I need is your energy and your vision. Because that's gone for me now. But what I have is lots of fertilizer. I have lots of wisdom and experience, and you need that. You will need to draw on it. And so, I'm there for you to draw. I'm there to... If you fall someone will catch you. But you have got the energy and the vision to go forward, and you have the responsibility to stand on my shoulders and reach forward.' So that makes me hopeful because I think that if we have the intergenerational conversation, then we can have a conversation with our young people. 

 

[00:04:13] Melissa Fleming

You were the architect of the Sustainable Development Goals where those children that you just mentioned could be living in a peaceful environment, in an environment where they would have equal access to education and opportunities. They'd be breathing clean air and drinking clean water. There would be justice. I mean, you're head of the UN Sustainable Development Group. You've been fighting to have these goals implemented. Can you just describe what the SDGs mean to you? What are they? 

 

 

[00:04:49] Amina J. Mohammed

What are they? We took four years to define these things and bring everybody with us. They are a framing of how you would sit at a table to get people to invest in human dignity. It's a different way than we did the MDGs. The MDGs, Millennium Development Goals, proved that goaling was good. We had a goal to end poverty. We had a goal for gender equality. We had a goal for maternal mortality. But those goals were band-aids. They were dealing with the symptom of trying to reduce the number of maternal deaths. But they never made possible an economy that would pay for a system that would deliver a hospital that when a woman went in she knew that she could come out with her baby alive. 

So, when you shifted to the SDGs, you were talking about addressing root causes and not the symptoms. I need a healthcare system. I need nurses. I need to have medicine in these hospitals, right from the primary healthcare centre all the way up to a tertiary state-of-the-art operating theatre. That was not what we addressed before. But this is what we're addressing now. How do you pay for it? Okay, we have to have a financing agenda. So, all of the SDGs tell you in one framing what you have a right to. That's what they do. There are many of them, but we were trying to get ownership of this agenda to say time has come that everyone deserves to have what you have. 

 

[00:06:20] Melissa Fleming

How much of the SDGs are personal to you? Maybe just thinking about your childhood. You grew up in the Lake Chad area of Nigeria. Humble beginnings. Does your own childhood experience give you a personal stake in bringing the SDGs into reality for others? 

 

[00:06:39] Amina J. Mohammed

It does. It does it in two ways. I mean, first I'm one of five girls, and so therefore the gender goal will always matter to me. 

 

[00:06:47] Melissa Fleming

Tell about the gender goal. 

 

[00:06:48] Amina J. Mohammed

Well, the gender goal really is about us all recognizing that 50% of our population are women and girls. They don't have a seat at the table. They don't have an education. They don't have a part of what should be recognized as their right and agency to have a life of dignity. And so that goal was to ensure everyone knew that no bird flies on one wing. You needed two wings. And the targets that we set, the indicators that we set for school, for access to health, for being equal at the board in a company, for just having your very basic rights to decide if you want a family or you don't want a family. All of those are enshrined in Goal 5 - to get equality between men and women. And it's not just about us doing the numbers. It's not about just saying we want to be equal to men. It's that the world is half done when you don't bring women to the table. So, I love my Goal 5. 

But when I look at the rest of the goals, I'm conflicted because I have a life full of contradictions. And so, I looked at the health goal and I recognized that I was very lucky because my mother was a nurse. And when I was born, it was in a hospital that had facilities. I was breech birth. So, I joke about it and say I landed on my feet, and I've never stopped. But the truth was I had a cord around my neck, and they had told my mom I'd gone. But somehow somebody managed to do something, and I lived. So, the fact that we have a goal on health and for me, that is from the day that you're born to the day that you pass. It's meaningful in all of that cycle. Because in my life, I might be a privileged child of a civil servant in Nigeria, but if I stretch my hand into my extended family, I touch poverty. I touch the loss of lives that should not be happening. And I couldn't do anything about them unless I fixed the system, which is why I do what I do. So those goals matter. 

The goals on justice. We did a lot of work on gender-based violence and everybody came to me and said, 'Yes, you've got to have more money for safe houses.' And I'm a survivor. So, I know that my safe house is my home. So, the perpetrator of that violence should be removed. Not me. Not my children. The perpetrator of the violence. So, the laws were perverse. And I said, 'No, no, no. Let's put the laws in that take the perpetrators out.' Men don't like to be taken out of their homes because they lose all respect in the community. Then everybody knows what they've done. It's a deterrent. It might not stop it all, but at least it leaves me in my home. Not a safe home because he'll come after me there. My home is where I'm safe and the laws and the community need to protect me. And they do so in my home with my children where we're safe. So yeah, Goal 16 matters. 

Goal 5 matters to me. The education goal as well. Because I saw my cousin growing up with me and then suddenly at the age of 11, I think she was. Yeah, 11. My grandmother taking her back to the village to marry her off. She was so much smarter than me. So, I just imagined that if she had had my life, she'd be much more successful. 

 

[00:10:08] Melissa Fleming

Why did she have to marry? 

 

 

[00:10:10] Amina J. Mohammed

Well, it's tradition, culture. Even though my father was educated. My mother was educated. But, you know, there are matriarchs. And you don't go up against the matriarch. It is our tradition, our culture. Of course, time changed after that, and she began to see what education meant for girls. But her concern was not one that she was doing something that wasn't right for her daughter, or her granddaughter, actually. She was trying to protect her. So, her way of protecting her was to put her into a home where she would be secure and she would have a family. 

 

[00:10:46] Melissa Fleming

That was a pivotal moment for you when you saw your cousin having to go get married? 

 

[00:10:51] Amina J. Mohammed

Yes, yes, yes. It was one that, for me, was about how do we do this differently? I had enormous respect for my grandmother, and she taught me many, many things. But I knew that she didn't mean to be harmful. So, what did I need to do to address this at the root? And it really was about poverty. It was not about education. It was about poverty. Once you dealt with the poverty in a home and the livelihood that you were able to actualize, people had the freedom to think about, yes, education is a good thing. But if I'm trying to survive, education is the last thing I'm going to think about. 

 

[00:11:32] Melissa Fleming

Did you always know at that stage that you wanted to change things, change systems? And did you have like a dream career already in mind as a teenager? 

 

 

[00:11:42] Amina J. Mohammed

I had many careers I thought about because we had the freedom of that. I mean, in our time, everything worked in Nigeria. You know, I had both a Western education, from primary school. Western education and a Quranic education. And local Quranic schools were the Malam. And we all sat there and did things, wrote for the Quran, and we learned how to pray. We are Muslims. But I also had a Western education, which... The Brits were still there, and so it was very much a British curriculum. And so, I had the best of two worlds. I kept my culture, my faith, but I also learned in the Western way. So that was a great childhood, right? I went to boarding school when I was six. 

 

[00:12:28] Melissa Fleming

Where? 

 

[00:12:28] Amina J. Mohammed

In Nigeria. 

 

[00:12:28] Melissa Fleming

Six? 

 

[00:12:28] Amina J. Mohammed

Six. 

 

[00:12:28] Melissa Fleming

Leaving your parents. 

 

[00:12:29] Amina J. Mohammed

It was never a problem because there were lots of us. I mean it was a smaller house. It was really nice people. It was a home. And you had to go to school there because your parents are so far away in a place that couldn't give you the same education. And my sister came with me, and she was much more upset about it. But we were together. But it is those bonds that I had in primary school that I still have today. But the schools were great. I mean we had a tuck shop. We went to school. We had good food. We had sport. We had needlework. We learned how to cook. We did everything. So, my childhood and primary school I remembered well. 

And now when I see the primary schools and secondary schools I cry because how did this happen? That I had such an incredible education in Nigeria, in a state. Because I was brought up a lot of my life in the northeast where Boko Haram began. And so, I say to you, you know, look. I had an education there. Terrorists are not born. It's about injustice. It's about stuff that happens to you that you feel excluded and no options and no hope and you do bad things. But I think my trajectory was always about... I mean, I always cared about other people. We are brought up in a home where you care about everyone. My mother, my father taught us that. My father was a vet with animals. Or my mother because she's a nurse and she did everything. There's nothing that she didn't turn her hand to. So, she was very versatile. And our doors were open. 

 

 

[00:13:56] Melissa Fleming

And how many siblings do you have? 

 

[00:13:58] Amina J. Mohammed

Five of us. Five girls. 

 

[00:14:00] Melissa Fleming

All girls? 

 

[00:14:00] Amina J. Mohammed

No boys. 

 

[00:14:01] Melissa Fleming

No boys? 

 

[00:14:02] Amina J. Mohammed

Yeah, my father was the endangered species in our house. He was the only man, the only boy. 

 

[00:14:06] Melissa Fleming

And was he supportive of you getting an education?

 

[00:14:08] Amina J. Mohammed

He was. And he was very hard on us. Always tried to make sure that, you know, you've got to get your education done. And if you don't, you're not going to go anywhere. So, he was. Because he was privileged. He was... You know they were selected as kids in the local schools, who were the smartest, who got the best results, and they were taken to England so that they would have an education that would come back and do the nation building after independence. So, in that way, I mean, I joke about being an independence baby. A celebration of independence was me. Nine months later, here you are. But that's what it was. And that's why my father was in the UK. And that's why I was born there, because he was at university. 

But we came back by sea. We came on a boat. And then we traveled up by rail to places that my mother thought were great, because she was a nurse, so she just wanted to help. And she will tell you all sorts of strange stories that you were like, 'Really?' And for him, you know, that was building his career as a vet. So, I think always around us, it's about giving. So, that tends to shape your world view. That you're not okay if everyone else is not okay. And we shared so much. You never had a bedroom by yourself or a meal by yourself. So, nothing was about "I." it was always about "we." And that's really followed me through my career. 

 

[00:15:30] Melissa Fleming

Where did you end up studying? 

 

[00:15:33] Amina J. Mohammed

Well, Nigeria. And then I went off to the UK. And my family sort of all broke up at one point. And so that was stresses and strains where we fell between the cracks. So never finished the education I thought I would have. And went straight to work. So, after leaving school young, went back to Nigeria to start work at a young age. 18, I think. 17, 18. With architects and engineers. And I had an Irish engineer and a German architect who taught me. So went through design and project management. And we designed and built public institutions. So, I knew... I know how public institutions are supposed to work - hospitals, schools. 

But what was the problem? We designed these schools and hospitals and then there was no money to build them. And then even when they got built, there was no money to run them. So, I sort of picked up the - "We've got to find the solution to this. There's no money." Yes, there's money. Who has money in the world? Where? The African Development Bank. Okay, let's go get the money. How much do we need to get? I never thought about the barriers. I just knew that you have money in that pot, and I've got to navigate my way to get that money. And that's what you do. 

 

[00:16:44] Melissa Fleming

You still do that. I've seen you do it all the time. I know, there's never... Never say no to you. 

 

[00:16:51] Amina J. Mohammed

Never say no. So, at the end of it you get results. 

 

 

[00:16:55] Melissa Fleming

You have six children, don't you? 

 

[00:16:57] Amina J. Mohammed

I do. Amazing! 

 

[00:16:59] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you wanted to outdo your mother? 

 

[00:17:03] Amina J. Mohammed

Something like that. No. 

 

[00:17:04] Melissa Fleming

Oh, actually, it is... You have six... Five siblings, so there are six of you. 

 

[00:17:08] Amina J. Mohammed

No, five. Four siblings, so there are five of us. 

 

[00:17:10] Melissa Fleming

Five of you and you have... 

 

[00:17:11] Amina J. Mohammed

No, I mean, for me... I married late, actually, because I was busy having a career. But I took a conscious decision that when I was going to start a family, I didn't want to be an employee. I wanted to be an employer because I knew that my work ethic... I'd leave the kids behind. And that is a responsibility that you must never leave behind. You're privileged and gifted. And to have a child, not everyone can have a child. 

So, I became an employer. We set up a company. And I made policies that said that the men in my company had to take their wives on business trips, and I'd take my nanny. I was trying to get... You know, the policies had to be equal. You know, and I was protecting. You know, the wives got a holiday. And I got to take my nanny and for the first two years of each of my children's lives, they were with me because I know that that's a part of the nurturing that you needed. And I had this thing in my head that my God, if I walked into my house one day and my kids ran to the nanny before me, I'd just cry. So, the nanny was to help me and not to be the mother of my children. But having said that, I mean, I have a nanny that has been with me since I got married and she's taken care of my grandchildren. 

 

[00:18:26] Melissa Fleming

Really? 

 

[00:18:27] Amina J. Mohammed

Yes, yes. So, we're all family. 

 

[00:18:30] Melissa Fleming

How many grandchildren do you have? 

 

[00:18:32] Amina J. Mohammed

Now I have five and one on the way. And you know what's really... I mean, apart from that being such a wonderful thing to be a mom and a grandma is that in Nigeria, I remember when I was so young and people would ignore me because I was young, professional, so they would dismiss you. And, you know, I was pretty skinny and small. And so, the day I got married, it was really so cool for me to say, 'Excuse me, I'm a married woman.' Because you got so much more respect. And then I had a child. 'I'm married woman with children.' And now, 'I'm a married woman with grandchildren.' And they're like, 'Sorry, mommy.' 

 

[00:19:07] Melissa Fleming

Really? That's a cultural thing that we don't have here. 

 

[00:19:10] Amina J. Mohammed

No, the cultural thing is that from the day you get married you've assumed responsibility for the two of you. There's a partnership. And that's responsibility. You're no longer "I." You're "we". And then you have a child. Oh, goodness! That's even more responsibility. So, you are given your respect in society on those levels. And if you want to call a man to order if he's misbehaving, that's the first thing you do is remind him of his mother. Remind him of his duty as a husband. Remind him of his... You know, all the things that in our culture and religion are demanded of you. If you don't do them, it doesn¡¯t mean the religion's wrong. You're wrong.  

 

[00:19:49] Melissa Fleming

And that's what you did. 

 

 

[00:19:50] Amina J. Mohammed

I used it. I used it all the time and we were... Yeah, I mean, I... Again, you know, I can.... They're painful experiences, but I mean my marriage didn't survive my career. And that's sad because you always want a companion. You want the father of your children around with your children. It matters when one half is not there. It's not good enough to say, 'I'm a single mom and it's okay.' It's not okay. You will manage, and you will do really well. And people will pat you on the back. Well done! But it's not okay for a child not to have both parents. 

And you have to go through the struggles of whether you've got to get your children. I was in the Sharia system. And I needed my kids, and there was a possibility they would be taken away. So, I had to go to court. And I had to go to court... And if I'd gone to the ordinary court in town... And because I was in a position of responsibility in government, it would have been very, very visual. I mean, I would be right... Visibility would be too high. And you know, the governance of those spaces were not the best, so I may have lost. 

So, I went out into the bush, into a local court. With this guy that was massive. And he just said to me, 'So what is it you want?' I said, 'I want you to give me justice, and by Sharia. It's my children I want. And I know that, you know... So, I want to do that.' And so, he said, 'Okay.' And he went through the Sharia, and he sat there with my ex and myself. And it was really quite amazing to see justice being done. I mean, even on things that at that time you sort of feel like, 'No, why should he have a say in how my kids are educated? He's already misbehaved. He can go away.' But they would say, 'No. He's the father of the children. He has a right and you have a right here.' 

And then I walk out of the court with all my kids. And it's a court full of chickens and all sorts of things. And he takes me into the inner chamber, and he does his judgment there to give me respect. But frankly, it was me seeing justice work. And so many women in Nigeria don't see justice work for them. So again, another reason why I do what I do on Goal 16 is that I've been through the system and I know how tough it is. And I was lucky. And I have my children. So yeah, I'm a mom and a grandma. 

 

[00:22:11] Melissa Fleming

You know, you just described the time when you were the mother of six children working in the private sector. You made a switch into the public sector. And you were advising not one, but actually four presidents of Nigeria. And you even served as Minister of Environment. What are you most proud of achieving during that time? 

 

[00:22:37] Amina J. Mohammed

You know, I said to you earlier that, you know, I never would have enough money to do the things I wanted to do because every corner you turn, there was suffering. There was someone who needed something. And so, I always wanted to have lots of money to do stuff for people. I turned to the system to try to make a difference. And that's why I went into public service so that I could fight from the inside. My first battle was in civil society and education. And then government said, 'Enough of the noise. Come in and try and do it.' 

But I think what really made the difference for me was when Nigeria got debt relief from what was the London Club, or the Paris Club of creditors. And that meant that we made a saving of a billion dollars a year. And the president decided to put that into a fund every year that would be spent on poverty. And he asked me to come and run that. And so that, for me, was it. Now that I had this amount of money that I could spend on poverty, the root causes. So, education, water and sanitation, health. And it was not easy because you're in a country where everyone expects that you're not going to spend the whole lot on everybody, there'll be a bit for you. No, that can go a little further and do a couple more million people. And this was amazing to put a team together and to deliver for Nigeria. And to show Nigeria and Nigerians that you could go to the furthest corner and you could deliver for people. 

So, government can work if you put those systems in place, the checks and balances. And the money didn't disappear, didn't get lost. So, people remember that, and it survived me. So that's what was really cool about this is that I've been able to go to places where the mainstay is that if I've done it well, it will outlive me. And that's success because you don't have to be there. You have to put the idea into work and then you leave. 

 

[00:24:39] Melissa Fleming

You got then tapped to be Minister of Environment. 

 

[00:24:43] Amina J. Mohammed

In this building. 

 

[00:24:46] Melissa Fleming

Oh, you were here? 

 

[00:24:46] Amina J. Mohammed

I was here, happily coming to the end of the SDGs. We had just gaveled. My president was there. He was new. He was putting his cabinet together. I don't know what happened. And then suddenly, I was told that he had nominated me. And then, suddenly, I was the Minister of Environment. And it was a big shock, I think, to the political system in my country, as well as myself. 

 

 

[00:25:10] Melissa Fleming

Well, I heard some people were calling you the dustbin lady. 

 

[00:25:13] Amina J. Mohammed

The dustbin lady, yes. 

 

[00:25:14] Melissa Fleming

What does that mean? 

 

[00:25:15] Amina J. Mohammed

It means that everybody didn't understand what the Ministry of Environment was. They only saw it as sanitation. So, it was about the dustbins. So this was the dustbin lady. 

 

[00:25:25] Melissa Fleming

Like dustbins, like trash cans. 

 

[00:25:27] Amina J. Mohammed

Like trash cans, that's it. Dustbin is English. Trash cans. And so, I walked into that ministry with my minister of state, and we said we've got to reframe the narrative for environment. It was incredibly exciting, but it was a big eye opener to environment and conflict. Environment and conflict in the Niger Delta of my country where oil spills were the thing of the day. So, there was a lot of environmental pollution, but there was militancy because of the oil. Then you went to the northeast. Desertification. The drying up of Lake Chad. Environmental consequence - Boko Haram. Then you went to the Middle Belt. That's where the two rivers come together. That's where populations come. That's where farmers get pushed out, herders get pushed out. Then there's the conflict over land. And then you have another herder, farmer crisis. So everywhere you looked environmental issues were at the root of many of the conflicts. 

So, it was not just about me doing a nationally determined contribution to the climate agenda and looking at my mitigation and adaptation policies. No, this is very real in people's lives that were dying because climate or environment were the root causes. So, we had a different spin and lens on this. We were the poorest sort of like member of the family in the cabinet, but we very quickly opened up the space to say let's go to the stock exchange and get bonds when people didn't even know what the green bond was about. Ours was the first domestic green bond in the world. Government platforms are powerful because they allow you to do for people, for the whole country. That that population you can work for, and you've got the machinery of government. And if you know how to deploy that the returns are enormous when you see what you can do to make a difference in people's lives. 

 

[00:27:17] Melissa Fleming

I've heard it said that you have this kind of "I never look back" mantra. And even if you leave your house and you've forgotten something, you don't go back in to get it. Why is that? 

 

[00:27:31] Amina J. Mohammed

I'm just looking forward. I think that if you go back, you just might stay there. So I might send somebody else to go pick it up, but I'm not going. So I'm always... 

 

[00:27:41] Melissa Fleming

Is it superstitious somehow? 

 

[00:27:43] Amina J. Mohammed

No superstition. It's just that... I don't know. It's one of these inner things that you have that you... I'm going to go forward. I've done this job. I'm not looking back. I've the best that I possibly can. And I think what I don't want to do is to get dragged down into some cynicism, or some regret, or you know when you've got so much more to do. Maybe I'll look back when I'm on my deathbed. Maybe. And even then, I probably won't. 

But I think there's too much to do going forward than to just dwell on the past. What I do with the past is learn from it. And there are times when you've made some, you know, terrible mistakes you want the ground to... I remember feeling the feeling of wanting the ground to swallow you. But I don't remember what it was, but I remember the feeling. And so, there are times in your life when you made such dreadful mistakes, but you just keep moving on and then you forget what it was, but you remember that that mistake was pretty mega, and you learn from it and you move on. 

 

 

[00:28:45] Melissa Fleming

If you had a chance to go back to the young Amina, what would you say to her? 

 

[00:28:54] Amina J. Mohammed

'Goodness! Did you think you would do this? Is that really you?' Yeah, because you asked me if I had a career plan. I thought about lots of jobs, but I never had a clear plan like everyone had, because I don't think I had sufficiently of a structured education to put me on that track. But yeah, I would just say, 'Well done!' I think you have to say you did what you could with what you had and you're still standing. So that's pretty big. 

 

[00:29:30] Melissa Fleming

What do you think she would say if she knew what you would become - the Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations? 

 

[00:29:37] Amina J. Mohammed

Oh no, I mean even my friends in school are like, 'No, you didn't do that.' And sometimes they'll call me and say, 'I can't believe you just said that. Well, how did you know all this stuff?' I'm like, 'I don't know.' Because everyone's talking to you saying [inaudible]. And so, I think she would be in awe because it was not what was expected. That was not what was expected.  I didn't expect it. I don't think anybody expected it. But hard work and delivering pay off. 

 

[00:30:11] Melissa Fleming

I think there was some tenacity inside of you. 

 

[00:30:13] Amina J. Mohammed

Yes, you don't... Like I say, you don't give up on these things. And you're not ready to throw your hands up and say... I have a big fit on things and then I just get on with it. But you've got to get it off your chest and I move on. Everyone knows that I will say what I have to say and then that's it. I'm not holding anything. And I think that that's really important because it allows you then to come back and not have that tension between two people that have disagreed. I like to think that we can agree to disagree, but you've just got to know what I think. And it's not personal. It's the issue. And we can disagree. And then we get on with it. 

 

[00:30:55] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, and I've seen you... I mean, if you see maybe somebody is preventing or standing in the way of something getting done, you don't like that at all. 

 

[00:31:07] Amina J. Mohammed

I did it today. I think I probably do it every day. I try to keep quiet. I walk into a meeting and I'm sitting next to the SG [Secretary-General] and I say, 'Okay. Behave. Just don't say anything.' And I speak slightly louder because I want the SG to hear. I don't want it because we all want that to happen, so... And then I'm very quiet for a while, and then after a while I'm like, 'Hell no! I've got to say it.'  You know, it's like, ugh. And then it comes out, and then immediately I've done that I also have to try to make the peace. But I really think that there is many a time when I have no regrets in saying something that maybe makes someone really uncomfortable if it's wrong. I try to be nice about it. And I try not to think about what they just said that could be so damaging because then that would get me really irate. 

So, I really need to keep about it's wrong and you need to know it's wrong and we're not going to do this. So don't get me to the stage where I start telling you what "you're wrong" means because then there's a fight. And I don't want that. I want the person to think through, because maybe they didn't know. You know, I always say... We talk about unconscious bias, but I think ignorance too. People don't know. They have a mindset that tells them that this is right, and many will be with good intentions, be entitled, if you see what I mean. They don't mean it in a way that is detrimental to the situation, but that's what happens. So, do you tell them, or do you just let them keep going? 

 

[00:32:52] Melissa Fleming

Better to tell them. 

 

[00:32:53] Amina J. Mohammed

Yeah, but it's not easy. Not many people want to get the flak. 

 

[00:32:59] Melissa Fleming

Usually most people don't like the discomfort. But you actually create an atmosphere of comfort in your office and in your meetings. There are always bowls of chocolate. 

 

 

[00:33:09] Amina J. Mohammed

I had a grandma on my mother's side with a sweet tooth. I had grandma on the father's side with a sweet tooth. And I was the only one that could ever eat the amount of sugar and sweets that they had. So, I [was] brought up on sugar, and it just translated itself into chocolate. But because I eat it... You know, Swiss chocolate and Belgian chocolate and all those chocolates, great chocolate, right? But I can only eat them one at a time because they're so rich. But Cadbury's, British chocolate, you can eat like your food. And I just think it's a comfort. And I think it is something that you can share with people. And the stress levels in every one of the offices I have ever worked in are very high. And so, the other thing about me is sharing. So, I just think that I already have too much and so... And we have cultures in Nigeria. If you said to me, you like my veil. That's it. You have it. 

 

[00:34:07] Melissa Fleming

Speaking of veils, you always look so beautiful, the way you dress. Everybody admires your clothes. And I know that also apparently people back in Nigeria scrutinize what you're wearing when you're appearing in public on TV. And what is it about the clothes you wear? They're very... I think they're designed in Nigeria. 

 

[00:34:32] Amina J. Mohammed

Yes. Well, I mean, you know, our fashion in Nigeria is second to none. And Nigerian clothes, I mean they're just your clothes, right? So, when I first came here and I was asking... It was the SDGs, by the way, not even as DSG, and I was asking the DSG then, 'So, it's okay to wear my clothes, right?' Because I saw her from Africa in a suit all the time. I said, 'I just don't do suits.' And so she was, 'Yeah, yeah. Well, you [inaudible] on occasions.' I'm thinking, 'This is going to be really hard.' And so, I said, 'Well, these are my clothes.' 

And so, for a long time I had to keep saying because people were saying to me, 'What are you celebrating?' I had to say to people, 'These are my clothes.' But in Nigeria, I mean, I know that if I was home, it would be even worse. But here, for them it is a Nigerian woman who is wearing her clothes. For those that are Muslim in Nigeria say, 'Well, there you go. This is a woman working in the international scene and she's not shy or embarrassed to wear her culture or her religion and to stand proud with it.' So, there's also pressure that you know someone will be looking at you and thinking, 'I don't have to do it.' And I'm like, 'You don't, but it's okay.' And so, if you go onto our floor, more people are wearing their clothes. 

 

[00:35:52] Melissa Fleming

I guess just finally, what would you say to people...? Because there's a lot to fix in the world that we talked about. A lot of people are just feeling so overwhelmed. What would you say to them that they could do to make our world a better place? 

 

[00:36:15] Amina J. Mohammed

I think one step at a time. This whole life is about a journey. Make each step count. It is about taking people with you. Don't do this alone, it's too heavy. You need people to cry with you, laugh with you. That's why the chocolate. And everyone in the office, you know, see them as part of the team. And yes, there has to be first among equals and you have to lead. And so, with that have clarity of vision and get ready to say when you don't know. Courage of your conviction. It's not easy to have the courage of your conviction because you've got to get ready to lose. You've got to get ready to say, 'Can't go past the red line.' And then they'll say, 'Well, step off.' And you've got to get ready to step off and not compromise. And that's hard. I mean, I understand that it¡¯s hard. But I have to... 

When I was 11 years old and I was having a fight with my mom, I think it was, I always had in my head that I could go live somewhere. So, I knew exactly where I was going to go. There was this mud hut. It was broken, but I was going to fix it and that's where I'm going to stay. So, I always had a plan B. I was never afraid of, you know, standing up for what I believed no matter what. And so that's what I carry with me now is that what's the worst that can happen to me if you ask me today to resign as Deputy Secretary-General? I'll go back to Nigeria. And when I go back to Nigeria, I have my six kids and my five grandchildren and my village that love me. And so, is that so bad? 

I still took with me my integrity and my courage and conviction. And I think that that is a gift. I think that I am so fortunate to have. So, if you're having a really hard time today, find the people who feel the same. Be very clear about what difference you want to make on something and start working at it, delivering on it. And it's not difficult, because today knowledge is everywhere. And you can acquire that knowledge and you find solutions. You just have to be intentional. You have not to think, 'I need to get to the top of the mountain if I press the button and solve the problem.' No, it is a journey. 

And it's who you take with you. It's how intentional you are about each step and delivering on it. And the other thing is just keep smiling. Laugh at yourself first, because when someone does it, it's not so funny. But if you do it first, then you beat them to it and there you go. But keep smiling about it. Our clothes and how bright they are, they're a mask for what's really going on. But everybody sees the spirit of it and then they feel cool. They feel good. So, you have to make people feel good. You really do. So yeah, smile. Laugh about it. It's the journey in every step. 

 

[00:39:04] Melissa Fleming

You made me feel good in this interview. 

 

[00:39:06] Amina J. Mohammed

Thank you. 

 

[00:39:07] Melissa Fleming

We got a few laughs, too, even though the subject matter was tough.

 

[00:39:10] Amina J. Mohammed

Yeah, it is serious, Melissa. 

 

[00:39:13] Melissa Fleming

Fascinating life story and you've given so much and moved so many mountains. So, thank you for spending this time on Awake at Night. 

 

[00:39:24] Amina J. Mohammed

Yes, well, hopefully you can all go to sleep now. But come... You know, next... It's not done yet, the life. An old man that I worked with on the site in Nigeria, it was a public building. And he always used to say, 'I'm going to die in harness.' And at that time, I didn't understand what it meant. And so, one day I had to ask him, 'Jim, what do you mean?' He said, 'Well, you know, I am a workhorse. And so, I want to... I just want to drop. I don't want to go home. I don't want to be a burden to anyone. I just want to keep working until the day it's over.' So that's not a bad thing to do, die and harness. Just giving. It's good. It' cool. 

 

[00:40:06] Melissa Fleming

Just giving. 

 

[00:40:08] Amina J. Mohammed

Yeah. 

 

 

[00:40:08] Melissa Fleming

Thanks so much. 

 

[00:40:08] Amina J. Mohammed

Thank you. Thanks, Melissa. 

 

[00:40:13] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.