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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week really impressed me with his will to keep working to make things better, despite serving in some of the most challenging and difficult places. 

 

[00:00:11] Peter Hawkins

We were able to change people's lives. I remember in Huambo in Angola, we were feeding 7,000 children a day and giving them a life. And there were three sisters starving to death. But two months later, we were able to discharge those three girls. That's the difference we can make. So nothing keeps me awake. Everything keeps me going during the day. 

 

[00:00:47] Melissa Fleming

Peter Hawkins is UNICEF's [United Nations Children¡¯s Fund] Representative in Yemen. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Peter. 

 

[00:01:07] Peter Hawkins

Thank you very much and it's great to be here. 

 

[00:01:12] Melissa Fleming

And I'm speaking to you in Yemen. Are you in the capital, Sana'a? 

 

[00:01:16] Peter Hawkins

I'm in Sana'a. It's a beautiful day just after Eid. So reflection and celebration is what the environment brings us today. 

 

[00:01:28] Melissa Fleming

Well, it's wonderful that people are reflecting and celebrating. I know the situation is really, really grim and tough for people in Yemen, and we're going to delve into that. Because the conflict in Yemen has led to what has been described as the largest humanitarian crisis in the world, or at least one of them. Can you just describe what that means for children. 

 

[00:01:54] Peter Hawkins

I think so. It's been 10 years. And it's not only conflict because conflict ebbs and flows and moves around. But it's also the economic collapse, the lack of salaries, no civil servants whether in Aden or Sana'a or anywhere else in the country. So your norms, your aspirations, the way you think and the way you work as a society is split and has fallen away. So as a child, you're coming into that environment. 

The first thing is 48% of children are what we call stunted. So they're malnourished in the first two years of their lives. That means that they cannot fulfill their full potential, whether cognitive or physical potential. And then there are things like immunization, education. All of these are a massive effort for both the individual child and their families and the communities that they live within. To try and get good schools, to try and get immunization in areas where... 67% of the population live in rural areas. You walk up these precipices up into the villages right up in the skies, basically. To try to ensure that a child has the means to live. 

We've had success. At the beginning of the conflict, the child mortality rate was about 53 per thousand. We've got it down to about 41 per thousand and maybe even 39 per thousand. So that success is there. The investment over the past 10 years that the international community have made, the investment the communities have made has worked. But the issue is about their vulnerability. So the small thing, the lack of water, the well dries up, floods, a cyclone, or the fact that food distribution has stopped. Those small and significant acts will detrimentally affect a child to the effect that they might not live. 

 

 

[00:04:14] Melissa Fleming

How long have you been in Yemen now? 

 

[00:04:17] Peter Hawkins

I've been here just over two and a half years now. 

 

[00:04:20] Melissa Fleming

You were just describing that the resilience is no longer there because of a number of factors. It is conflict. It is the economy. It is extreme weather conditions, I assume, brought on by climate change. What was it like before? 

 

[00:04:36] Peter Hawkins

Well, Melissa, it's fantastic you say that. The communities living at the top of these precipices. It's stubborn. It's there, but they do it for a reason. They do it to be able to survive. If they were down in the valleys, the floods would take them away. So you understand why they do it. But has it helped them agriculturally? Has it helped them socially? Has it helped them to access the services that have been provided over the years? No. It's been difficult. How do you provide education when one child is up this mountain, another child is down in this valley? It's so difficult - the topography, the conflict and development over the years, has been very, very difficult. 

And yet it's such a rich society. Incredibly resilient people. One with a phenomenal history. And the most recent history is one of turmoil. And it goes on beyond the 10 years of conflict. 30 years of change and movement and different kinds of influences and decades of people coming into Yemen from outside. Sometimes outside the region as indeed the British were. And changing the demographics. Changing the way of life. Whether Yemen has been able to adapt to those changes only we can see in the future. 

 

[00:06:07] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you're in Sana'a now and you were speaking a bit of the beauty of the country. I've actually had the chance also to visit Sana'a and also travel around the country. And it is, as many describe it, and that's how I felt when I saw it, it's actually kind of magical. Can you describe what Sana'a is like, especially the city. What are your impressions? 

 

[00:06:33] Peter Hawkins

Magical is the term, Melissa. You're 100% right. It's like a magical place. I remember one evening during Ramadan, the fasting season last year, we went... It was the minister of health and myself. We went to a hotel in the Old City. The Old City has 85 mosques. It's, I don't know, three kilometres square. And we just sat there. He said, 'Let's keep... Just sit here.' As the crescendo of the mosques, the chanting, and then the prayers, and then the call for prayers. And the light on these old mud buildings all around you. Four stories, five stories high, as far as the eyes can see. It is magical. It's a beauty of extreme... There's nothing to compare it to. 

 

[00:07:25] Melissa Fleming

And the architecture is quite unique, isn't it? I mean, you described the 85 mosques, but just the facades are quite striking and unlike any city that I've ever seen. 

 

[00:07:37] Peter Hawkins

You walk around the Old City and there's small alleyways with four or five stories high mud buildings and the facades are beautiful and you see the windows and the different shapes. You see the small doors and the windows for the females, the windows of the males. The way that people go into the alleyways and then go out. Then there's this wonderful, beautiful marketplace with the different types, with the silver, with the qat, with the raisins. And one place that the raisins are beautiful. I was very lucky that two farmers came with their raisins from their farm there. And then they came, and they put it out on the floor, and they were proud of what they had. It shows how rich the country is, how developed the economy can be, and yet how stagnant it has become. 

 

[00:08:41] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, and it is probably wonderful on one hand to see this flourishing market, but also very disturbing on the other because you travel through the country and you see staggering rates of malnutrition. People can't access this kind of food - the fruits and the vegetables and the nutritious food that they would need to thrive. I think it's particularly bad in the western coastal areas. Can you describe what it looks like there and how people are living? 

 

 

[00:09:18] Peter Hawkins

That diversity is so crucial, Melissa. You go from Sana'a up north to Sa'ada and you go through the communities. There¡¯s very highland people. But you can see the poverty. You can see it in their eyes, the children's dusty hair and the bad skin. You can see for generations that they have been suffering, and they continue to suffer. 

The schools are blown out. There are very few schools that have not been damaged by conflict. So the children go there and sit there in these classrooms with no walls, no floors, no desks, and learn. And they're proud about what they learn. And they come to me when I go to those schools and they say, 'Look, don't worry. We will continue to learn. But if you can give us desks, if you can fill up the walls and you can give us a floor and a blackboard, we'll be even better.' 

What we have managed to do over the past three months is provide 23,000 desks right throughout the northern area. It's been phenomenal. 1,116 schools have been rehabilitated throughout Yemen by a programme, a fantastic educational programme. So we're doing it, but it's a small part of the whole thing. Education is about the child and the teacher. And that child is ready. 

 

[00:10:46] Melissa Fleming

Can you... Is there a child that you met on any of these trips that you helped maybe, and you can't get out of your mind? 

 

[00:10:54] Peter Hawkins

I mean, there's one in Sa'ada. I stopped at a school and this child did come to me and he said, 'This morning I sat here, and I did my exam.' There's a puddle and then a little dry place next to the puddle. And that's where he sat. And that's where he did his exam. He sat on the floor. There were no walls. It was bombed out. We went across the road. I didn't go into the household because there were only females in there, but a colleague went in and sat with the mother and three daughters. And they talked about the fact they have a school opposite, but the school is not giving them what they want, but they will still thrive. They will still go to school. These are three daughters. 

On another occasion, I was in a completely bombed out school where there were boys and girls, which was unusual in this context. I went into the boys' classroom, and it was damaged, very badly damaged. The ceiling, as I stood there in the classroom, it was leaning on one pebble. And I looked at these kids down there and I thought, 'You know, if something happens, what will happen to these kids?' But on the other hand, they were all smiling and all learning. And I walked out and there were 12 girls sitting on the floor by a tree with a blackboard. One of them had their baby with them. They were 11th grade children, girls. Gold dust. Gold dust anywhere in the world. 

 

[00:12:38] Melissa Fleming

I understand that this is a really tough time for the humanitarian community. There is a big UN presence in Yemen. UNICEF is one of the organizations there. But there've been dramatic cuts to humanitarian aid recently. The United States most dramatically, but other European countries have also made cuts. Can you describe what impact that is having? 

 

[00:13:08] Peter Hawkins

I think, Melissa, when you work in a country like Yemen, there are multiple issues that you need to address. And, you know, we have a number of them. You know, the economy, the conflict itself. But I think the biggest over the past two years has been the collapse of the banking system. It has really impaired the way we're working. And now we have the designation of a foreign terrorist organization by the United States of the Ansar Allah group here. And that complicates things more. So we have to overcome all of these. Detention. Our UN staff have been detained. We have 22 of them detained at this point in time. That creates uncertainty around safety and security of our staff. And then third, as you said, it's the cuts in the humanitarian assistance. But to me, that is the easiest one to address. 

And it's about prioritization. What we must stand up to is ensure that the most vulnerable children, the most vulnerable women, girls, and boys, have access to services, have access to... You know, when I say services, I don't just mean health education and nutrition, but also cash or food, and on a regular basis. If there are cuts... And then there have been cuts and we knew the cuts were coming and they've been there for two years. 

You prioritize further and further around vulnerability, and you make sure the most vulnerable child, the most vulnerable woman, the most vulnerable girl and boy receive the assistance that they want. So what we have done is prioritize health and nutrition to ensure that 3,200 primary healthcare centres across the country function with minimum service package around newborns, around maternal care, around immunization, and critically around nutrition. 

 

[00:15:17] Melissa Fleming

Well, I certainly hope that the most recent dramatic cuts don't threaten that baseline, because you are making progress in treating those kids who are already malnourished, acutely malnourished, and preventing any others from getting there. It's just so impressive what UNICEF is doing there. I remember having a conversation with you recently when we were both in Rome. And we were just... We were talking. I was struck by your focus on the mother and on women. So not just specifically the children. But why do you emphasize focusing on women as well in your programme? 

 

 

[00:16:03] Peter Hawkins

I always say it was about women, girls, and boys. Because your response to each of those communities is very, very different. And especially to the young mother, especially the adolescent mother. One is delaying pregnancy for as long as possible. But two is also spacing pregnancies. But three is ensuring that the mother has the right nutritional and strength capacity to fulfill a pregnancy. It is very difficult to fulfill a pregnancy. 

You know, I was brought up in Ethiopia and down the road was the fistula hospital, Catherine and Reg Hamlin, who ran this amazing fistula hospital. Over the years, my father became the chair of the hospital. I became a member of the board. But you saw these young girls, 15, 16, who would come to the hospital. They're incontinent. They've been rejected by their husbands. They've been rejected by their families. All because they had obstetric problems, and at birth, or even without birth, the child has breached the womb and the bladder. Nine times out of 10 the child would die. And sometimes, quite often, the mother would die. 

If you don't help that, not only are you not helping the person themselves, but you're not giving the child the best care of their lives. The statistics... You take Nigeria. It's 200 women die a day giving birth. That's one big plane crashing every day, one after the other, every day. This is the 21st century. We have the means. We have the understanding. We have the resources to be able to ensure that fistulas don't happen, that fetal malnutrition doesn't have to happen, and women have access to maternal care at an early stage. 

 

[00:18:17] Melissa Fleming

You would think that everyone would support that. What is keeping you awake at night these days? 

 

[00:18:25] Peter Hawkins

Oh, everything, I think. I've been lucky in life. I've loved my life. I have no regrets in my life. Every day I wake up and I prefer to start in the morning rather than what keeps me awake. I feel there's something I can do. There are things I enjoy. And I have been lucky. I've worked in the famine in Ethiopia when I started. With the JVP [Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna] and LTTE [Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam] fallout in Sri Lanka. In Angola when the UNITA [National Union for the Total Independence of Angola] and MPLA [People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola] were fighting, and we were able to change people's lives. We were able to look at the positive side. 

And it's not only those children. I remember in Huambo in Angola we were feeding 7,000 children a day under siege and giving them a life. I walked down the first queue and there were three sisters starving to death. And I said to my colleague that I didn't think these girls would survive, but to continue the process. Two months later... I was coming back into Huambo every two weeks, but two months later we were able to discharge those three girls. That's the difference we can make. So nothing keeps me awake at night. Everything keeps me going during the day. 

 

[00:19:53] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like this is the kind of career that motivates you. You said that you grew up in Ethiopia, but are you originally from Britain or you come from a British family? Where were you born? 

 

[00:20:08] Peter Hawkins

I was born in the East End of London, and my parents went to Ethiopia. And I spent the first sort of 28 years of my life on and off in Ethiopia, both living there, going to school. Then I went to secondary [school] and university in London but was going back all the time. And then I had the privilege to return immediately after university to work in the famine in northern Ethiopia. So Ethiopia is everything that influences me, that drives me, and that works for me. 

But I think, Melissa, as we're talking about it, it was what happened around Ethiopia at that time with Band Aid, with Bob Geldof, and then the work both in London and Philadelphia with the Band Aid concerts, the "Do They Know It's Christmas", "We Are the World," and all of those things. They galvanized three, four generations into appreciating that the world is not uniform. There are different degrees of ability to survive, and there are different reasons why people survive or not, as the case may be. And that Ethiopia became the beacon of what we can do and what we should do and how we should respond. So I was lucky enough to work in the famine in Korem, in Dessie for the whole of Ethiopia, for the whole of the northern Ethiopia, sorry. And it taught me that you can achieve. You can ensure that a child survives. You can ensure that people can survive. 

And then you look at what was happening in 2006 or beyond. There's a massive programme run by the World Bank with the British government and European Union and others, which looked at healthcare, education, accessibility, farmers' roads into hinterlands, security and water for the communities. And has changed the demographics, changed the way Ethiopia looks. Famously, what we used to say is 35,000 community health workers had changed the way Ethiopia looks. 

So I sat with my children in a market in a place called Lalibela, and this farmer was walking towards us. And they looked at me and said, 'Daddy, that farmer...' You know, he had a stick, short trousers and white shawl on. Farmer that would be the same farmer probably centuries ago. They said, 'Daddy, you haven't made any change here.' And I said, 'Look at that farmer today. His wife is probably literate, when 10 years, 15 years ago, she would have been illiterate. One in five of the children would die now, whereas before there was one in three of the children. And he has access to family planning. The children have schools. There's a primary health care centre. He would have been 75 percent indebted before. Now he would have assets. Yes. The person is the same, but everything around that person has completely changed. Everything.' And you see it now across Ethiopia, the massive change. And countries like Yemen could change in the same way if we invest in the right way with the right environment. 

 

 

[00:23:51] Melissa Fleming

One of the things I remember, the Live Aid concert and also feeling so inspired to help. And really, what it did was, as you said, it raised incredible awareness that not all of us have the same advantages and that there are people suffering tremendously in Ethiopia. It galvanized people to care and also to help. I don't know if we're seeing that kind of focus today, whether you talk about the people on the brink, the 48% of kids stunted in Yemen or the near famine in Sudan. There is more awareness about what's happening in Gaza, but not as much as we maybe would hope. Does that dishearten you or are you still hopeful that we can turn things around in a world that seems really, really troubled right now? 

 

[00:24:51] Peter Hawkins

Melissa, you're right. And things change. What in the mid-'80s it was so important was raising awareness. Remember then we didn't have 24-hour news. We had partial news. Today we are aware. It's not about awareness. We know where Yemen is. We know where Sudan is. We know where Gaza is. We know what's happening in those three countries. We know everything of why and what for. It's about the response. And that's the problem today, is how do you respond to complex political and social situations? We know about climate change. We know about conflict. We know about all of these issues and rights. The Convention on the Rights of the Child is now 40 years old. We need to continue to raise those values and to be able to hold onto our principles in the response to these situations. 

 

[00:25:52] Melissa Fleming

Was it your parents that...? I mean, you mentioned that your dad ran a fistula hospital in Ethiopia. What were your parents doing there and did they instill this passion to help others in you? 

 

[00:26:07] Peter Hawkins

They were both accountants. My mother and my father were chartered accountants, and they set up their own firm, an auditing firm in Ethiopia. And one of the things that as a company they did was some charitable accounts. And one was to the fistula hospital. For my father, it was a very important part of his DNA inside that business. For my mother, it was a very different thing. She used me to go and do those accounts. And at a very young age that's what I did. It was an incredible experience for me as a child to do the accounts of this hospital. And then my father became the chair of the board, and after my father died, I became a member of the board. 

You know, those sorts of things make you who you are. The mix between my father's charitable thing and my mother's drive to succeed and successfully manage a business, if you want for a better term. As she would see the fistula hospital, it has to have money coming in, money used well, and the output, the results are girls coming out with their fistulas repaired. It is so important to understand how one side of the world is so lucky, and the other side of the world is still desperately poor and how do we bring those two together. 

 

[00:27:43] Melissa Fleming

I believe you joined UNICEF in 2015. What drew you to the United Nations and UNICEF in particular? 

 

[00:27:53] Peter Hawkins

I was working for the British government before then and the draw of multilateralism was big for me. And it's ironic because today there's an attack on multilateralism. That is sad. But I prefer to be within the multilateral society to fight for our ability to be able to respond to situations rather than sitting outside. 

 

 

[00:28:19] Melissa Fleming

Why is multilateralism so important? 

 

[00:28:22] Peter Hawkins

I think because that's the value that after the Second World War, when the United Nations was formed in 1948 and beyond, was what really galvanized the world to come together. Is how do we build a multilateral society? How do we build a multilaterally United Nations together to take this world forward in the way it is? 
And it's... You know, over the past two or three years, it is sad to see that infrastructure, that crumble and crack. Will it collapse? Will it find a way of coming out stronger? 

It needs to find a way. The United Nations needs to look at itself and find different ways that it can come out stronger and maintain the values that in 1948 and beyond formed the United Nations. Those rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, I keep talking about it. I did my thesis on child rights before the Convention was ratified. These are so important. I always say rights and results are what we are all about. The rights determine what a woman, girl or a boy has. And our results help them achieve those rights. 

 

[00:29:53] Melissa Fleming

Very simply, what are the main rights of a child, a girl or a boy? 

 

[00:29:59] Peter Hawkins

For me, there's one fundamental right that a child should always have to their unique identity. That birth certificate determines that Ali or Hanan or Hana has a unique identity. And everything comes from that. And I over the years have been passionate about this. It's very difficult for you and I to sit there and say a birth certificate when they have no food or they have no medicines or what have you. But that birth certificate ensures that someone somewhere is planning to ensure that they do have vaccines, that they do have access to schools because they have that unique identity. They're not just a number somewhere that can be discarded. They have a name and an identity and that gives them the right to everything else. 

 

 

[00:31:02] Melissa Fleming

I think you've seen those rights trampled on in many theatres of where you've worked for UNICEF and maybe most dramatically when you served in Iraq from 2015 at a time when the conflict with Islamic State militants was at its height, children really badly hit. Is there an incident, a child, that you can't forget? 

 

[00:31:29] Peter Hawkins

That there were many. Mosul. Just after the Islamic State were defeated in Mosul. Mosul is the second biggest city of Iraq, and it was occupied for three, four years by the Islamic state. Incredible. The people didn't go out. So I was walking down with my jacket and my helmet on down one of the streets and I saw two children playing. And I approached them. They got scared and ran back into their house. 

So I followed them to their house. It was their grandmother in the house. And I asked if I could come in. I took off my flak jacket and my helmet, obviously. And she said, 'Yes'. So, we sat there, and we talked. I talked to the children, talked to her. For three years, four years, they didn't leave their house. This was the first time they got out to play. They were homeschooled. Others would go get food and bring that to them. And the children, they were scared. They were frightened. They hadn't seen other adults. They knew about this Islamic state, but they didn't know about this guy in this flak jacket and the helmet walking down the street. That's why they run away. But when they saw me and when they talked to me, they realized that there is good in this world. 

At the same time, I was sitting by the road. We were doing a distribution. I just went off and sat. And these two young girls, women, came with their burqas and everything. I asked them where they were going. They said, 'We don't know. We haven't been out of our house since the beginning of the war. This is the first day. We just want to see what the world looks like today.' That was it. 

There were two other children in a health clinic. I watched them. They were selling mobile phone chargers and [inaudible]. And they were making a lot of money. I watched them for about 30 minutes. Then I said to them, 'So what do you want? You know, you've got this and what else do you want?' And they said, 'We only want one thing. Is to be able to go back to school.' I said, 'What about this?' 'No, school is more important.' 

So we did... You know, UNICEF there, I mean, it was fantastic. I think it was 250 schools we rehabilitated immediately within three months of the conflict subsiding. And all these kids were going back into school for the first time. They were meeting each other for the time. They were seeing a book that wasn't the same book in their house. They were seeing a teacher. And it's wonderful. 

I remember in Ramadi... Ramadi is further south from Mosul. I was the first person in there. It was flat. Two months later, I went back and there was one small school. We drove through these bombed out streets. I opened the door and there's this wonderful little... It's like heaven. It was beautiful. These kids playing. These two teachers teaching them, and everything. And I... You know, you're emotional about it. It's fantastic. 

And I was coming out. I was in the first vehicle on the passenger seat. And it's, you know, that gray feeling and sight of a bombed-out place. It's all gray. It¡¯s never colourful. And you're driving along, going through all the rubble and stuff. And then suddenly round the corner, three girls skipping with their bright clothes on. Well, I can't remember if it was red or green or something. But in the gray, it doesn't matter what colour it was. It was bright. It was wonderful. They were smiling. They were skipping, and they were going to this school. And that's what life is about. 

 

 

[00:35:34] Melissa Fleming

What are your hopes for all children in the future? 

 

[00:35:39] Peter Hawkins

That we move away from what we are in today. We need to find a new world order. The values that the United Nations were founded upon either need to be exercised or adjusted to find different world order. I'm optimistic, but it'll take time. 

 

[00:36:02] Melissa Fleming

Finally, Peter, I know that you're in a place like Yemen, so you do get to go and take a break now and then. And I know your partner actually works for UNRWA. So I wonder... And you mentioned Gaza. Is that all you talk about? You have two people together working in two of the most difficult theatres of human suffering. What are your conversations like? 

 

[00:36:37] Peter Hawkins

There's a lot. There's a lot. You have books and you read, and you read. My passion is sport, whether to play or whether to watch and to follow. You have to be distracted by those sorts of things. I distinctly remember, Melissa, when I was first in Korem. Korem was the epicentre of the famine. And early every morning, 6:00, just at dawn break, I would go up onto the plains and walk around where the people were, the 100,000 people encamped in these tents that were slightly under the ground. And you walk around, and you would meet a mother coming out with a dead baby or a husband coming out with his dead wife. And you were overwhelmed by it. You were overwhelmed by the emotion. 

If you're overwhelmed by that emotion, you cannot do anything to help. So you had to step back and say, 'Okay, that child, that mother, that father has died today. How can you prevent that tomorrow?' So everything that we do in our partnership is about surviving for ourselves today and tomorrow but looking to the future to see what else we could do to make this world a better place. Give our tiny, tiny, tiny contribution to that. 

 

[00:38:18] Melissa Fleming

Well, I think your contribution is more than tiny. Thank you so much, Peter, for sharing your life story with me and for all of your work in Yemen and everywhere else where you've served. 

 

 

[00:38:31] Peter Hawkins

And thank you, Melissa. That was so wonderful. 

 

[00:38:36] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.