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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

So much can be done to treat cancer, but too many people in the developing world have no access to care. 

 

[00:00:08] May Abdel-Wahab

It's unthinkable. It's unfair. You know, health is a human right. And how could people in the most difficult time of their lives facing a major illness not have even access to treatment, or even in some cases, diagnosis? 

 

[00:00:33] Melissa Fleming

May Abdel-Wahab is working to change that. She is Director of the Division of Human Health at the International Atomic Energy Agency. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, May. It's great to be with you in your studios in Vienna, and it feels a bit like coming home because I used to work here too. Nice to see you. 

 

[00:01:07] May Abdel-Wahab

Very nice to be here. Thank you so much, Melissa. We're really excited that you're here. 

 

 

[00:01:12] Melissa Fleming

You have dedicated your entire career to enhancing medical care for people, especially cancer survivors. I would like to know, though, how do you do that here at IAEA? I don't think people realize that the IAEA is involved with human health. 

 

[00:01:34] May Abdel-Wahab

That's a great question. Well, basically, the IAEA from the peaceful uses of nuclear is really the international focal point for these uses, including in health and development. And basically, we have many opportunities to support because, for example, everybody's had an x-ray for something and that x-ray is based on radiation. So, we would be supporting people to train on how to do radiology, nuclear medicine, all of these medical uses of radiation. 

But also, in treatment of cancer, for example, using radiotherapy. Quality assurance and training the medical physicists who are working very hard to make sure that the treatment dose is accurate, for example. We also have other uses in nutrition. We also have uses in agriculture and other things as well outside of human health. So, there's so many peaceful uses, but people don't recognize it and realize that these are peaceful uses of nuclear. 

 

[00:02:36] Melissa Fleming

And we also kind of take it for granted here in Austria or in New York where I'm based what the IAEA, I assume, is doing is helping countries that don't have access and the training to this technology. And I was particularly struck, and I recall being shocked at how few countries in the developing world have access to radiotherapy for cancer treatment. 

 

[00:03:03] May Abdel-Wahab

Absolutely. You're absolutely right. I mean, the IAEA works with both countries, countries that lack access, where we support them to get new machines, new equipment in general. So, we are able to support across the board in different ways. And also, through research projects and other things. But most recently for cancer care, we have our Rays of Hope initiative. And, you know, that is really exciting because it has supported many countries already, even though it's only been two or three years now, in initiating some of these centres around the world and training people. And also creating regional centres of excellence or Anchor Centres. So, there's a lot that's happening right now in that space and it's quite exciting. 

 

[00:03:54] Melissa Fleming

I remember as I was myself going daily to receive radiotherapy for the cancer that I had. It was 27 rounds of radiotherapy after chemotherapy, but I recalled that many countries either lacked a single radiotherapy machine. And felt very, very grateful that I had access to this kind of treatment. Do more people who are suffering from cancer have access to radiotherapy in the countries where you work? 

 

 

[00:04:30] May Abdel-Wahab

So we're working towards that goal. When we started Rays of Hope, there were 22 countries in Africa that had no radiotherapy, for example. Shocking. And it became even more obvious to the average person with some large screening programmes that detected cancers. And then they were told, for example, there's no treatment within a country. So, it was a wake-up call, I think. And increased interest in getting access to treatment in these countries for the local population and for the countries themselves. So right now, and a good example is in Malawi, whose getting their first public radiotherapy centre that's going to be released. 

But not only ones that don't have anything, but even ones that do have infrastructure, but not enough. Because if you look at the number of machines that have to be per million, for example. And one machine treats about 500 patients a year. Then you realize that for large countries with large populations, even if they have a few centres, it's not enough. In reality, it is very similar to not having anything if you divide them up into smaller countries, right? So, one of the things we've done is, also in these countries, to provide them also with support. So, one example is Kenya, where we have supported with LINACs [linear accelerators] and training. So, a lot is happening in that area. 

But then you have to think about what about sustainability? So many times, we would create a centre. But are we sure that this centre will be sustainable over time or will all this effort go to waste when the machine breaks down? There's no replacement. There's no maintenance. People who we train may want to go somewhere else if there's treatment ongoing. So that's where the Rays of Hope Anchor Centres come in. And those are centres that have already been supporting the IAEA to help us to train people in the region, to help use their experts to support other countries, to work with our research projects, to... 

I can give an example of how it increases access, some of these research projects. And these countries, we bring them into Rays of Hope, these centres. Their government supports this nomination first. We support them if there's any areas that are needed to get additional support. And then we move forward to the next step, which is, you know, they would be able to even train more people, do more regional training, get more involved in research and train others in research. They're all very strong centres that have really supported us for a long time. And now, we try to create that Anchor Centre network across all regions. Truly one world.

 

[00:07:13] Melissa Fleming

Is there...? I mean, do you ever have any encounters with individuals who are suffering from cancer and who have benefited from your programme? 

 

[00:07:25] May Abdel-Wahab

Yes, I think everybody who has visited any of these centres that we've supported along for decades, we've been doing it, really. We will meet patients who are doing better or physicians who have trained. Just last week, I was on duty travel, and I met five or six professionals who were being trained. Each one of them was from a different country in Africa and they were being trained at one of our Anchor Centres in North Africa. And they were all very excited and gave very good feedback on their experiences. 

 

 

[00:08:00] Melissa Fleming

So these are doctors? 

 

[00:08:01] May Abdel-Wahab

So these are doctors, but also of course patients that we meet as well.  

 

[00:08:05] Melissa Fleming

And it must be just really gratifying, because as a doctor, you know when you get a diagnosis like that... We've come so far. We've advanced so far in our ability to save people's lives through cancer treatment and just that idea that there would be people who couldn't access the care. 

 

[00:08:31] May Abdel-Wahab

It's, you know, there's nothing to say about it. It's hard to express because it's unthinkable. It's unfair. It's... You know, health is a human right. And how could people in the most difficult time of their lives facing a major illness not have even access to treatment, or even in some cases, diagnosis? And it's not just access to the machines and the equipment. But also, it's geographic access, even within a country. 
It's financial access because of the financial toxicity that people undergo just to travel or to stay in a place outside of their city or home or for their family to be closer to them. And many studies have shown the significant financial toxicity. 

But it even goes beyond that because you see, especially for women, the effect on the family, on access to food, on education, especially for young girls. On the extra work that many of the young girls in the family have to do to support the mother who's sick. And many, many other downstream effects that we don't recognize right away, but they're there and are documented in many of the publications out there. 

 

[00:09:50] Melissa Fleming

I've been told that you work really long hours here and sometimes well into the evening. I wonder what keeps you awake at night. 

 

[00:10:02] May Abdel-Wahab

What keeps me awake is the knowledge that there's someone out there that does not have access to care. I remember when I was an intern, there was one patient that really affected me, a bladder cancer patient who was sitting on a bed in a very crowded hospital in the corner. And he was so weak and so... And he just was like, 'Can you please help me.' And he was just so quiet in the corner, and he's just like... I felt like these people are the people that we work for, right? 

All the people on the ground that are going through this, we want to make sure that they have a good physician treating them, who has access to training, good machines that provide good quality and the right doses and all that. But also, a good support system, good palliation, good access to... So many issues that are out there that need to be addressed. And unfortunately, many times, people don't recognize this until they themselves are touched by it or their family members. And it's incredible because you work... I mean, myself, I've been a physician since 1983 or '84. Many years. And it doesn't cease to amaze me how unless you're in the field or affected by it, you don't realize all the issues that are there that we need to really overcome. Even if you have good access, even if you have, it's very challenging. 

And also, the fact that we don't have that much time, right? I mean, we're trying to move forward quickly before we get the increased incidence that we know of cancer that's coming down the pike. We have all the numbers. We have the projections. And if we're deficient now in supporting people, imagine if we don't rush very quickly what happens. So, in Africa, for example, we did a couple of papers almost 10 years apart, and we found that we were doing better. There was a 12% increase in machines, but then the cancer incidence increased by 32%. 

Partly because there's... You know, you have to remember there's an increase in population. People are getting older. There's more, you know, environmental factors. So many factors that we have to take into consideration. So, you have more cancer patients, but you also are trying to put in more centres, more machines. So, one of the things we're also doing is looking at how we can use the ones we have more efficiently, and that's where research comes in. 

 

 

[00:12:40] Melissa Fleming

So cancer rates rising, and it sounds like a race against time. But you seem to be using all kinds of research and knowledge to advance and to make more efficient the knowledge you are transferring. And can you describe how AI might benefit this process?  

 

[00:13:03] May Abdel-Wahab

So AI is... Okay, so we can say it's kind of a black box. It depends on the data that it's trained on. So, we have to be careful before we get into how to use it. The first step is to look at the ethics of it, to make sure the quality is there and all that. So that's an area that we're working on, and our medical physics section is publishing some guidance on that as well. 

So, for example, for an average patient it takes the doctor two to three hours to outline where the tumor is and outline the normal tissue so we can spare it when we're planning where we're going put in the radiation dose. So that process can be made easier using AI to do this, what we call segmentation. So, you can imagine that once we're happy with it, then it means that everything will be streamlined and a bit faster and the doctor's time will be used more efficiently. 

 

[00:13:57] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned also you're not just working¡­ I mean it would be big enough just to be tackling the inequalities around cancer care. But you're also dealing with the problem of malnutrition. How does your work have an impact on that? 

 

[00:14:12] May Abdel-Wahab

Nutrition is a very basic human need, and unfortunately, it's not only just not getting enough food but also getting the wrong type of food. So, we have a double burden where people are gaining weight but still being malnourished. So, one of the examples that we do is we use isotopic techniques to look at, for example, breastfeeding. Like how much breastfeeding is actually happening and actually have a quantitative measure. 

In addition, we have the use of imaging. Like nuclear medicine is also used in things like cardiac imaging, assuming [inaudible], and neurologic imaging. So, all of these things also support the... You know, because for example, if someone is getting specific types of chemotherapy, for example for breast cancer, some of them can affect the heart [inaudible]. So, we have ways we have to use nuclear medicine techniques and others to be able to assess how everything is going. Or to do it beforehand to make sure that people stay safe and that their heart is okay. 

 

[00:15:21] Melissa Fleming

That their heart can take this level of what felt like poison when I was getting it, I remember. But yeah, you need everything else to work in your body. 

 

[00:15:32] May Abdel-Wahab

Yeah, as long as there's good monitoring and good practice, in general, the chance of having long-term effects is quite low. So that's why all these things are very important as a preventive measure to make sure that we know what's going on and be able to adjust everything accordingly. 

And from the radiation therapy perspective, there's also the dosimetry lab. And what that means is that for all these hospitals who have machines there's equipment that needs to be calibrated, right? And there's also dosimetry that needs to be done to make sure that the dose coming out of the machine is the right dose. So, you can imagine how impactful that is. So, for one machine, if it's not done right and you say you're treating 500 patients a year, you know, it's very important that they get the right dose. So, the IAEA, through our dosimetry lab, is able to look at that and send what we call postal audits to be able to check the dose. So, it's a network of quality enhancement and excellence. 

 

 

[00:16:38] Melissa Fleming

And what about you? Do you often travel to some of these projects where you're helping? Is there one that has particularly moved you or struck you? 

 

[00:16:50] May Abdel-Wahab

I traveled to one of the countries in Africa where it had one centre only and they were developing the new centre. We were working on that. We trained the physicists and we're getting the new equipment. And the colleagues there told me that only a few years before there was chemotherapy being given attached to a tree, you know. So, there was a very significant jump between what it was before and what it is now. 

 

[00:17:19] Melissa Fleming

So from a tree to a building. What did the building look like with equipment? 

 

[00:17:26] May Abdel-Wahab

Building a small cancer centre. It has the chemo. It has the radiation therapy. I mean, a completely different thing. I think the lesson from that is that we should always know that change is possible and we just have to work at it. 

 

[00:17:37] Melissa Fleming

Did you meet any patients there? 

 

[00:17:39] May Abdel-Wahab

There were patients, of course, a lot of patients waiting. Yes, so there were quite a few patients there. And they're always curious about these people who are coming to visit. So... And the second is looking at some of the Anchor Centres that we've visited, because they're the future. And we hope that within all the regions we have several centres. And that they will be able to do some heavy lifting and maintain this momentum within the regions. 

So, yeah, I just came from one of the Anchor Centres in North Africa. They had people from five or six different countries in Africa that were all training at the same time. So, you talk about unity for humanity. There you go. In one room, in one area, we were standing there and talking, and you had all these people from all over that were training there and becoming the nuclear medicine physicians that they were supposed to be. So, when they go to their country, they'll start this whole new service. 

 

[00:18:45] Melissa Fleming

And start saving lives. 

 

 

 

[00:18:47] May Abdel-Wahab

And start savings lives. So, it's exciting. This is what makes the work we do exciting. It¡¯²õ this synergy and also multiplying effect. 

 

[00:19:02] Melissa Fleming

It is more at a distance than what you were used to when you were a practicing doctor. I mean, you've been at the IAEA for over 10 years, but you had a distinguished career as a radiation oncologist before you joined the UN. What was it when you were treating patients...? Is there something about that that you miss, this kind of direct relationship? Or do you prefer this kind of bigger picture multiplying effect where you know in the end, even though you can't see them you're probably helping, you know, scores and scores of people survive cancer? 

 

[00:19:38] May Abdel-Wahab

I think once a physician, part of it is seeing patients. So, whenever you have the chance to re-engage, which I do, then that happens. Having seen patients for many years, at the beginning, you're so excited that you're helping an individual. And you just feel like you want to protect and support your patients, you know. And every person that walks through the door is a new person, a new friend that you're going to meet, you're going to talk to, you're going to support. And you recognize that you have the honor, really, of meeting someone during a difficult time in their life and being able to support them through it. And if they leave the exam room with a smile and hope, then you've done a good job. 

Because in this life there is no absolute. We all know that. We try to make ourselves feel comfortable thinking that whatever we have lasts forever. But the reality is this world is very unpredictable, as is clear these days. So, in an unpredictable world, what can you do to help? And that's what you try to do. And if you look at it that way, then you never feel like, you know, it's... Patients come in as human beings, not as faces that walk through the door. And I think that's what makes practicing and having this opportunity to support fellow human beings in this way, something that's really special. And I love that. And I've always... You know, that's something that really means a lot to me. 

As time went by, I realized that I'm one person and I will not be able to affect as many people as I'd like to, right? So, then you start getting into, 'Okay, so I'll train the next generation.' So, you multiply the effect that way by having people trained as, not only just in the technical aspect, but also in how you treat people. And my own mentor was a wonderful humanitarian who always said that, you know, 'If you don't think of each person individually, then you're going to miss things and you're not going to get the best.' And that's something that I've always felt was important. So, you train the next generation to think that way and understand the great, how can I say it, responsibility. But responsibility is a very small word compared to what it really is. It's more than that. It's a huge thing that you carry with you, that you're going to be able to address and support people who put trust in you. I think trust is the word. That's the next generation. 

And then you find, okay, so it's still limited, right? Because you multiply that by the number you can see each year. You're not reaching enough people. So then maybe do more research, work in the lab, develop new compounds, you know, that kind of thing. But even that has its limitations, because as you know not a lot of compounds end up creating significant change. But then when you talk about the global level, you just put one machine in and look at how many patients you can affect. You do good quality assurance and look at how much safety for these patients is going to happen. You train a bunch of people and look at how many extra people are going to be helped by it. So, the impact is huge. 

The regulations, the research, everything is done at a bigger level and bringing people together. So, we had all the radiation oncology regional societies, we brought under one umbrella to support Rays of Hope. So now we can work together towards one goal, which is efficient. There's less overlap. There's more synergy. So, these kinds of things, they are not easy to do if you're not working at an international level. 

 

[00:23:38] Melissa Fleming

What made you decide to become a doctor in the first place? 

 

[00:23:42] May Abdel-Wahab

So when I was younger, a family member was having this minor surgery, and I was there and all that. And I was just inspired by the help, the activity and what these doctors were doing. And I felt, you know, it's a way to make your life worthwhile, right, to be able to help others. And there are many ways of doing that. But it just happened that this one kind of spoke to me. And I felt like that's what I want to do. I liked the medical environment. I liked how people interacted with each other, how they really were very selfless and trying to support the person and to be able to find solutions. So, you come to me and maybe I can help you in some way. I thought that was a really nice thing to have. 

 

[00:24:31] Melissa Fleming

Did any of your family work in the medical field? 

 

[00:24:34] May Abdel-Wahab

Actually, my father was an ambassador, so he was quite different, but still a big humanitarian. He did many really wonderful things, and he's an inspiration in that sense. I had a great uncle who was a radiation oncologist, actually, as well. 

 

[00:24:50] Melissa Fleming

So, I guess the ambassador father gave you this kind of global perspective. Did you live around the world then? 

 

[00:24:59] May Abdel-Wahab

Yes, just like many people who end up here, right? 

 

[00:25:02] Melissa Fleming

End up in the UN. 

 

[00:25:03] May Abdel-Wahab

Exactly. They've had different experiences and then recognize, 'Oh, you know, we're all one. You know, this is a great place. We're one world.' It's hard to recognize it, sometimes, if you don't have that experience. Even though a lot of people will naturally come to that conclusion through their experiences. Just keeping an open mind sometimes helps, yeah. 

 

 

[00:25:29] Melissa Fleming

Why did you pursue radiation oncology? 

 

[00:25:31] May Abdel-Wahab

So, radiation oncology was a group from NCI [National Cancer Institute], it was meeting, and it was like a... 

 

[00:25:39] Melissa Fleming

This in the US? 

 

[00:25:40] May Abdel-Wahab

Yeah, and then... 

 

[00:25:41] Melissa Fleming

I don't think we've established where you were living at this time. 

 

[00:25:43] May Abdel-Wahab

Oh, I lived in many places. I lived in the US in many places - northeast, south, mainly on the East Coast. And in Cairo for a while. In Sri Lanka and Brazil, short times. Yeah, so Asia, South America, North America, and Africa. 

 

[00:26:10] Melissa Fleming

Okay, so you decided to study radiation oncology. Where did you do that? 

 

[00:26:11] May Abdel-Wahab

Yeah, they were very interesting. They were having these scientific kinds of discussions, and you know... It's always like a person that you meet that inspires you, right? It just kind of opened your eyes to the field, that this was a possibility and this was interesting and, you know... I would not have known, and most people don't know about this field at all. Because in medical school people are not exposed. They do surgery. They do medicine, internal medicine. But radiotherapy, they get a week max. 

 

[00:26:44] Melissa Fleming

Really? 

 

[00:26:45] May Abdel-Wahab

Yeah, yeah. So, people don't really know about it, unless they do a special elective, but most people won't ask for it because they don't know much about it. So, there's usually someone who tells them about it. 

 

[00:26:56] Melissa Fleming

You were particularly interested in helping people with cancer? 

 

[00:26:59] May Abdel-Wahab

Exactly. I thought it was a lot of unknowns, a lot of things that needed to be addressed. And also, I ended up doing a lot of prostate and GI cancer. Of course, at the beginning it was all kinds. But then I kind of zeroed in on prostate cancer and gastrointestinal. 

 

[00:27:20] Melissa Fleming

What is gratifying about treating people with cancer? You must see also some cases where it's just too late. 

 

 

[00:27:31] May Abdel-Wahab

Whoever you see, there's always a chance to help, okay? And as long as you look at it that way, then there's always hope in something, right? So even if it's advanced, you can stop the pain, you can treat bleeding, you can do a lot of things that people feel so relieved after and you can help. You can have an impact, you know. And my patients... I maintain a lot of relationships. I mean, it's been many years, some of them from my very first university and their kids and you know, so. 

 

[00:28:07] Melissa Fleming

You're still in touch with them? 

 

[00:28:09] May Abdel-Wahab

Yeah, they still, you know, email or text, you know. 

 

[00:28:13] Melissa Fleming

They see you as the person who saved their life. 

 

[00:28:16] May Abdel-Wahab

No, I think it's on a human level. You know, you connect to people. And yes, in a difficult time, like anybody, if you're going through a difficult time, you meet friends, colleagues, whoever, that may have supported you through that. And then you feel like, you know, you click, I guess.  

 

[00:28:36] Melissa Fleming

I know that some doctors and you said in medical school also radiation oncology wasn't really emphasized in training. Also, the kind of mental health aspects of having to go through such a frightening disease. 

 

[00:28:51] May Abdel-Wahab

Of course. 

 

[00:28:52] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like that was very important to you, that kind of connection and relationship and helping people. 

 

[00:28:59] May Abdel-Wahab

It's essential because you can't be successful unless you support the whole person. It reflects on the people's decision to continue through treatment, to follow whatever guidance. Or to say, 'No, I have too many side effects right now. I'm going to quit.' So there has to be that relationship and that support. Otherwise, the outcome from a clinical perspective is going to be worse. 

So, it's not just a person's mental health is important. Of course it's important, but it also affects the outcome, that's the clinical outcome. And you see it all the time. And if people are supported, they come into a place that they're happy, they know people care about them. We're human beings. We're not computers. And this will affect how people get through the treatment, I think. 

 

 

[00:29:54] Melissa Fleming

I wonder how... I mean, it is a lot to take on, especially when you were treating patients directly. How did you cope with, at the end of the day, coming home and having treated patients who were really, really sick? 

 

[00:30:13] May Abdel-Wahab

Okay, so just like everybody, some days can be, you know, if a specific thing happened that you wish hadn't happened, you wanted a better outcome. Yeah, we're all human. It affects us a little bit, of course. A lot maybe. But I think the way to look at it is, you know, how much you can do. You're not... My mentor used to say when they asked him, 'How long will I live?' Or something like that. And he says, 'What does this say on my badge? It says MD, not GOD or something that.' So, he used to laugh at that and always say that. The first time he said that I'm like, 'What is GOD?' And then I'm like, 'Oh, okay. That's what he means.' 

But what he's trying to say is that no one person in this life can know everything and do everything. And we know. I mean, we're human. We have our limitations, of course, but the one thing that's inexcusable is not trying your best. You have to try your best for everybody and then the rest, you have to accept that you are human and it's not always going to work out exactly like you want. But if you're able to help someone through something. I mean, let's say, make their days better because they're pain-free. Or, you know, they're able to spend more time with their family or go to their daughter's wedding or their son's wedding, or whatever it may be that their goal is. 

And that's why the most important thing is to ask, 'What is your goal?' And then everybody has a goal. You just have to spend time. A lot of times, people don't stop and ask that. And then you miss a lot of good opportunities. And it's important to listen. I know it's harder nowadays because over the last years, I think doctors around the world are being pummeled a little bit in terms of under-staffing, under-funding. It's very hard. And they're still... You know, they're trying to do their best to reach out and take care. 

But the business aspect of medicine has kind of permeated medicine and has affected the experience of being a doctor. And I think that is one of the biggest challenges for medicine now. And there are no easy answers because it's a system that's in place in many places. But even in places that have universal healthcare, you see the emergence of more private. Which means that people are not happy with... You know that we need to improve our universal health care centres that people are going to so that they don't have to go outside, I think. 

 

[00:32:42] Melissa Fleming

Finally, what are your hopes when it comes to multiplying the work that you're doing even further? 

 

[00:32:51] May Abdel-Wahab

So I think in order to multiply the work, we need community. And so, we have to work and continue to work with all the different groups under that umbrella and help coordinate. So, we all work... It's like pieces of the puzzle and you have the different pieces, and everybody brings a piece to the table. And then you can have the big, beautiful picture. But if each one is working in a silo, I don't think it's ever going to happen because we'll always be behind. 

So, my dream is that people will come together and work together and create something that keeps moving forward. And we're already seeing some of that happening, whether it's through Rays of Hope, whether it is through the multiple partnerships that we have and collaborating centres and many others. I mean, the IAEA does not work alone. It works with all of these people on the ground who believe in the mission and want to help humanity. And those are the people that really change things on the ground. And the support from other NGOs, the patients that understand what's happening and advocate for treatments and for other things. I think it takes us all. It takes a village. 

 

[00:34:03] Melissa Fleming

It does take a village. And thank you so much for enlightening us on all of the really amazing work that the IAEA does under your leadership on human health. Thank you so much, May. 

 

 

[00:34:16] May Abdel-Wahab

Thank you, so much. It's a pleasure. Thank you for being here today. 

 

[00:34:20] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.